10 replies to this topic

[TheBacon117]

Ok, so I can't find any exact information on how to use my joystick as an absolute control of a mech (rather than the default relative movement).

I downloaded a program that does this in the windows environment no problem. Joystick left, mouse goes left, joystick center, mouse centers, great.

When I run Mechwarrior, I can't seem to unbind the joystick axis from the torso control. It takes the input from the joystick and performs relative movements, rather than take the input from the mouse.

So, first question, anyone know how to use joystick with absolute control over the mech's torso?

Second question, How do I have a joystick plugged in, but still only control with a mouse (unmap joystick axes).

Thanks.

[MuKen]

As far as I can tell, this is only possible if you happen to be using one of the few sticks compatible with the thrustmaster TARGET software. If somebody knows a solution that works for everything, I'd be very interested to hear it too.

[TheBacon117]

Well, I found out how to unmap. When you double click a joystick assignment, you have to click a joystick button, rather than a keyboard key... So if you double click an axis, and click one of the joystick buttons, double click the next axis, click the same joystick button, etc, etc. it will unmap all joystick axis assignments.

So, my planned workaround is to use some program to intercept the joystick input, and then control the mouse with it. Found this handy dandy program: http://www.imgpresen...joy2mse/j2m.htm that will control the mouse with joystick in an absolute fashion. BUT, it only works in windows. In game, the mouse control still works, but it ignores the output from the program. (Works really well in the windows environment BTW. Takes a little getting used to, but I could see this being just as fast, or faster, than a mouse).

Anyway, unless someone else has a workaround, I was thinking of using a scripting language like AutoHotkey to intercept the joystick inputs and move the mouse with it. I will share what I come up with (if I do), but I'm a Mechanical Engineer, not a Software Engineer, so don't expect much. I can already foresee a couple issues, like the torso getting out of synch with the joystick. I think a simple "Center Joystick -> Press center torso button" should fix any occasional issues, assuming it doesn't get out of synch very fast. Speed of the script will be a problem, I'm sure. Cross that bridge when I get there.

Edited by TheBacon117, 28 March 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[Loc Nar]

Ooh ooh, I do, I do! The key is using a mouse emulator instead of analog bindings. I actually made my own stick out of a Thrustmaster Cougar just for mech piloting that has a custom gimbal that


-moves in pitch/azimuth (natural range of movement of the mech)
-has no spring centering or detents (but has greased rubs for damping)
-has no deadzone
-uses absolute inputs


The key for the digital side of it for me though, is being able to use TARGET, Thrustmaster's kick *** software for it that among many other things is a comprehensive kbm emulator. I can also toggle between sensitivities like any mouse worth it's weight, as well as some automatic sensitivity stuff tied to advanced zoom or arm lock. Naturally button mapping is dialed in as well. I have near 2500 matches on this hardware, and after going through and refining the last remaining crude bits it's everything I imagined piloting a mech with a stick should be like. Heavy (it's all metal...), butter smooth, extremely precise, easy to maintain orientation in-game, easy to adapt to -I've had non gamers test drive my mechs, using my mechpit in the training ground, and they get right to it.



The bad news is that using a normal stick does quite get you there due to the pith/roll/spring centered gimbal being largely suited for relative inputs, so even if you use relative inputs it's still pretty goofy, just not as quite as goofy as relative inputs. You have identified what I consider one of the key pieces of the puzzle though. If you ever wind up with a Thrustmaster Cougar (>$180), Warthog (>$350) or T16000 ($40) I already have very useful scripts, you can use absolute inputs to your hearts content. If you get one of those and build a suitable gimbal however, I will have to start telling people they are only 99.8% correct when they talk about using a stick with MWO. Right now they're 99.9% right...
Why is a normal stick 'hard mode' to put it mildly?

-moves in pitch/roll (unnatural range of motion)
-has spring centering and/or detents (fights inputs unless centered)
-needs deadzones
-uses relative inputs

I've played MWO with a regular stick before, and it's not that it can't be done, it's that it's not the stick experience it *could be, but people use remarks like Steering Wheel Underhive to describe it. There are a few folk that have adapted to this handicap, but I'm pretty sure they're limited to heavies and assaults due to the s l o w n e s s of those mechs allowing for the low sensitivity levels needed to control the mech with relative inputs, but as you've probably gathered it's generally pretty facepalm.


As far as I know, TARGET is the only thing going that has enough built in function to compensate for any lack of features on the MWO side and it appears to be the most fully featured. Honestly anyone using it already has (and had all along...) better support than you could ever expect from PGI when the game is fully developed though. I was a sim dork before showing up here, and I've had my ear closely to the ground on this since last May, and have watched so much avoidable frustration. Generally, few people have made it through even the technical challenges of getting a normal stick to function well enough to get to the real brick wall, which is using an airplane stick/relative inputs to pilot something designed with and for an absolute based interface. Most (not all...) either give up the stick or give up the game. Why is a mouse so much easier than an airplane stick?

-moves in x/y Cartesian (natural range of movement of the reticule)
-has no spring centering or detents
-uses absolute inputs

[TheBacon117]

Loc Nar, right on, good information. I have a Saitek X52, so I doubt I can use TARGET, but that sounds like the cat's pajamas (it sounds really good). I agree with you, I want the absolute feeling. If anything, it's a much better tactile feedback for torso postion. My theory is that it should really increase the situational awareness in the game. I thought about the spring issue, and at this point, i'm thinking I can get used to it, but I will have to try it first. (removing the X52's spring is easy, anyway).

A KBM emulator is exactly what I want. I'll do some more googling, and see what I come up with.

Edited by TheBacon117, 28 March 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[TheBacon117]

And woah, that cockpit setup is really awesome. Nice work.

[Loc Nar]

If you find one that works, let me know! Another detail I have learned along the way is that the y axis needs to be somewhat less sensitive then the x axis as well, so also look for independent axis control. I came within inches of buying an X52 Pro before getting my Cougar, but already knew I wanted to build a new gimbal and use absolute inputs from the get go, but at the time thought it would have been a no brainer for either one (hehe). My distressed Cougar was $180 after shipping, but I've seen them sell for as low as $120 the other day. At the time, I went with Cougar for the cool factor of it being metal and wanted it to have that kind of heft, and it's well known that Cougars have awful gimbals in them so they can be found cheap. What I didn't realize, is how critical TARGET capability would be for making the difference between what would be for me a boat anchor, vs a fully functioning interface since I was still semi naive to the state of MWO control scheme plights.

To me, it was unimaginable that anything in the sim genre would *not have full peripheral support, so didn't even research the state of affairs. Heh, I was even shopping for screens for my upcoming mechpit, to ya know, display the minimap etc Several cultural shocks later, I have significantly reduced my expectations, and can enjoy what is here, although I'd really like to see things sliding towards simulation and away from shooter as time moves on. Still boggles my mind though. The interface, for better or worse, does not merely augment the experience, it IS the experience!

[Loc Nar]

If you find one that works, let me know! I'm also interested in any mods you do to your stick. Another detail I have learned along the way is that the y axis needs to be somewhat less sensitive then the x axis as well, so also look for independent axis control. I came within inches of buying an X52 Pro before getting my Cougar, but already knew I wanted to build a new gimbal and use absolute inputs from the get go, but at the time thought it would have been a no brainer for either one (hehe). My distressed Cougar was $180 after shipping, but I've seen them sell for as low as $120 the other day. At the time, I went with Cougar for the cool factor of it being metal and wanted it to have that kind of heft, and it's well known that Cougars have awful gimbals in them so they can be found cheap. What I didn't realize, is how critical TARGET capability would be for making the difference between what would be for me a boat anchor, vs a fully functioning interface since I was still semi naive to the state of MWO control scheme plights.

To me, it was unimaginable that anything in the sim genre would *not have full peripheral support, so didn't even research the state of affairs. Heh, I was even shopping for screens for my upcoming mechpit, to ya know, display the minimap etc Several cultural shocks later, I have significantly reduced my expectations, and can enjoy what is here, although I'd really like to see things sliding towards simulation and away from shooter as time moves on. Still boggles my mind though. The interface, for better or worse, does not merely augment the experience, it IS the experience!

[Loc Nar]

If you find one that works, let me know! Another detail I have learned along the way is that the y axis needs to be somewhat less sensitive then the x axis as well, so also look for independent axis control. I came within inches of buying an X52 Pro before getting my Cougar, but already knew I wanted to build a new gimbal and use absolute inputs from the get go, but at the time thought it would have been a no brainer for either one (hehe). My distressed Cougar was $180 after shipping, but I've seen them sell for as low as $120 the other day. At the time, I went with Cougar for the cool factor of it being metal and wanted it to have that kind of heft, and it's well known that Cougars have awful gimbals in them so they can be found cheap. What I didn't realize, is how critical TARGET capability would be for making the difference between what would be for me a boat anchor, vs a fully functioning interface since I was still semi naive to the state of MWO control scheme plights.

To me, it was unimaginable that anything in the sim genre would *not have full peripheral support, so didn't even research the state of affairs. Heh, I was even shopping for screens for my upcoming mechpit, to ya know, display the minimap etc Several cultural shocks later, I have significantly reduced my expectations, and can enjoy what is here, although I'd really like to see things sliding towards simulation and away from shooter as time moves on. Still boggles my mind though. The interface, for better or worse, does not merely augment the experience, it IS the experience!

[Loc Nar]

Quote

A KBM emulator is exactly what I want.

Hi Bacon, been a while so I'm not sure if you found what you're looking for or not, but this one seems to be alright:

http://atzitznet.no-ip.org/Joy2Mouse3/

Also, as my understanding of the subject matter improved, I wound up writing an article on MWO and controls that I also posted in the hardware section called Controls Demystified(?) that gets into more depth and uses standardized terminology to explain what is going on.

ps. the MWO forum was suffering a stroke during my last post and generated all those duplicates...

[scJazz]

Loc Nar, on 28 March 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Ooh ooh, I do, I do! *many joystick things*

Ohhhh ya we bet you do Loc Nar o Keeper of the Absurdly Detailed Knowledge of Joysticks!