89 replies to this topic

[Sybreed]

After reading several threads about Alpha strikes, missile boating and the arguments of both sides defending and attacking these issues, I think the reason some people call for big alpha strikes nerf (or heavy missile boating nerf for that matter) is because it turns Mechwarrior, a game supposed to be about long mech battles with multiple limbs taken off and such, into 3-5 seconds flash fights where a mech is instantly cored with the rest of the mech almost green. In other words, it feels more like CoD then Mechwarrior and not everyone likes this.

I'm not even referring to TT values, lore and whatnot, I'm simply referring to how Mechwarrior battles should pace. Yes, big weapons like the gauss or AC/20 have their places, but they shouldn't be able to often end a battle 2 seconds after it started.

Yes, you can and should alpha strike from time to time

Yes, you can boat some weapons if the mech permits it.

Yes, boaters have their weaknesses, but that's not the point of thread, again.

But, small weapons and an efficient heat management also need to have their places in the game.

And please, only post constructive replies please... nothing about how I should learn2play or learn2build... that bring nothing to the table.

edit: This thread isn't about me being insta cored (don't remember it happening), it's about the game turning into CoD with mechs.

Edited by Sybreed, 28 March 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[BladeSplint]

If you're getting cored in a few seconds you need to take a hard look at your tactics. Stay with your team and learn to distribute damage by torso twisting.

[Sybreed]

BladeSplint, on 28 March 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

If you're getting cored in a few seconds you need to take a hard look at your tactics. Stay with your team and learn to distribute damage by torso twisting.

funny you say that, that's what I suggested to someone who complained about ERPPCs doing too much damage.... a month ago.

This thread isn't about me or my tactics, I know how to deal with heavy alpha strikers, it's about what the game is turning into.

Edited by Sybreed, 28 March 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

BladeSplint, on 28 March 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

If you're getting cored in a few seconds you need to take a hard look at your tactics. Stay with your team and learn to distribute damage by torso twisting.

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

funny you say that, that's what I suggested to someone who complained about ERPPCs doing too much damage.... a month ago.

This thread isn't about me or my tactics, I know how to deal with heavy alpha strikers, it's about what the game is turning into.

So... what you're really saying is "nerf bad play"? Not sure what they can do about that....

[Lukoi Banacek]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

After reading several threads about Alpha strikes, missile boating and the arguments of both sides defending and attacking these issues, I think the reason some people call for big alpha strikes nerf (or heavy missile boating nerf for that matter) is because it turns Mechwarrior, a game supposed to be about long mech battles with multiple limbs taken off and such, into 3-5 seconds flash fights where a mech is instantly cored with the rest of the mech almost green. In other words, it feels more like CoD then Mechwarrior and not everyone likes this.

I'm not even referring to TT values, lore and whatnot, I'm simply referring to how Mechwarrior battles should pace. Yes, big weapons like the gauss or AC/20 have their places, but they shouldn't be able to often end a battle 2 seconds after it started.

Yes, you can and should alpha strike from time to time

Yes, you can boat some weapons if the mech permits it.

Yes, boaters have their weaknesses, but that's not the point of thread, again.

But, small weapons and an efficient heat management also need to have their places in the game.

And please, only post constructive replies please... nothing about how I should learn2play or learn2build... that bring nothing to the table.

edit: This thread isn't about me being insta cored (don't remember it happening), it's about the game turning into CoD with mechs.

turning into COD? The only time I see people die as quickly as you imply is when they do something stupid (myself included) like charge multiple enemy at once or ignore the AC40 Cat/Jager and try to face hug them etc etc. It's a situational awareness, gameplay, tactical issue moreso than mechanics of the game imo.

Ac40's haven't suddenly gotten quicker to kill targets. Guass haven't suddenly gotten more powerful than they already were. 6PPC stalkers do as much damage as they did two months ago.

Folks are acting like "all of the sudden" the matches are shorter.

[Sybreed]

Lukoi, on 28 March 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

turning into COD? The only time I see people die as quickly as you imply is when they do something stupid (myself included) like charge multiple enemy at once or ignore the AC40 Cat/Jager and try to face hug them etc etc. It's a situational awareness, gameplay, tactical issue moreso than mechanics of the game imo.

Ac40's haven't suddenly gotten quicker to kill targets. Guass haven't suddenly gotten more powerful than they already were. 6PPC stalkers do as much damage as they did two months ago.

Folks are acting like "all of the sudden" the matches are shorter.

you're right, the builds are nothing new. What's new is that these builds are becoming the norm and more and more people only want to play that way, which is why I refer it to the CoD syndrome.

[Pater Mors]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

you're right, the builds are nothing new. What's new is that these builds are becoming the norm and more and more people only want to play that way, which is why I refer it to the CoD syndrome.

More people want to play them because they're successful and good at killing noobs. Why does that have to imply they're OP and need a nerf? As far as I can recall, boating has always been a part of MechWarrior.

[Ardney]

Weapons dont kill mechs, people kill mechs. Don't nerf weapons, nerf people.

Edited by Ardney, 28 March 2013 - 07:05 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

you're right, the builds are nothing new. What's new is that these builds are becoming the norm and more and more people only want to play that way, which is why I refer it to the CoD syndrome.

You think they are more the norm? Personally I think they've become a bit less common. Neither of us can truly know at this point (it's all anecdotal), but given the Jager's natural strengths, of course you're going to see AC40's and minisplats on the new "shiny." Outside of that though, I've seen more variety as of late, not less.

[Roadbuster]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

After reading several threads about Alpha strikes, missile boating and the arguments of both sides defending and attacking these issues, I think the reason some people call for big alpha strikes nerf (or heavy missile boating nerf for that matter) is because it turns Mechwarrior, a game supposed to be about long mech battles with multiple limbs taken off and such, into 3-5 seconds flash fights where a mech is instantly cored with the rest of the mech almost green. In other words, it feels more like CoD then Mechwarrior and not everyone likes this.

I think that's a viable point and truly the root for some of the complaints.
The only problem is, how do you change this?

The only solution I can come up with would be to either reduce damage of all weapons and increase ammo/t or to increase armor of all mechs and ammo/t.

I agree that it would be more fun if fights took a bit longer so good piloting and aiming skills would give you a bigger advantage.

[Brilig]

The big problem with high alpha builds are the pinpoint damage they do. My suggestion to "fix" that would be to change the cross hair system around. You can keep things skill based, and avoid pinpoint damage issues from heavy alpha strikes.

For instance here is what the Hunchback 4Ps cross hairs could look like.

That would keep the weapons from being pinpoint, without the random number generator frustration. Each torso based weapon or weapon grouping could have its own cross hair. Nothing too extreme, but enough to spread the damage around. People can keep alpha builds, but they aren't quite as devastating.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

After reading several threads about Alpha strikes, missile boating and the arguments of both sides defending and attacking these issues, I think the reason some people call for big alpha strikes nerf (or heavy missile boating nerf for that matter) is because it turns Mechwarrior, a game supposed to be about long mech battles with multiple limbs taken off and such, into 3-5 seconds flash fights where a mech is instantly cored with the rest of the mech almost green. In other words, it feels more like CoD then Mechwarrior and not everyone likes this.

That's spot on, exactly what I think. If it is going on like this, I'd almost welcome stock-only builds. -.-

[Voidcrafter]

BladeSplint, on 28 March 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

If you're getting cored in a few seconds you need to take a hard look at your tactics. Stay with your team and learn to distribute damage by torso twisting.

Yes, but ofcourse, someone said "OH... something can core me in 2 secs" and the basic response is "You're playing like a noob - don't know what you're doing".
Well if I'm with 2xAC20s mech, going with a bit more than 82kph, I could, would and WILL like... ALWAYS find my way around and by doing so, when I engage, the fight will be on my terms - which would be ~300m distance at the most.
And you know why?
Two things - I got brains enough for not firing at 700m range, and maps allow me to.
Do you know what happens to a team, that gets ambushed by 4 mexhs with 2xAC20(which nowadays is not quite uncommon tbh - almost feels like an ordinary match)?
It get's killed, that's what.
And it's not a bad teamplay on the one side, nor a good on the other - that's just how the game currently works.
I mean... how stupid should one be to try sniping with AC20s? Cause there aint that kinda of people in my ELO bracket, I assure you.
So yea - I point you wrong - it's not the lack of skill that makes it so, it's the fact, that piloting these mechs feels like easy mode.
People will always try to find their way toward the shortcuts, cause, probably, it's the most logic thing to do.
Is it a flaw that the game mechanics allow this to happen?
My opinion - yes. It is.
And when someone, for a thousand time, blame this on us, saying we don't know how to play, I really wanna..... arrrgh

[Jack Corban]

Pater Mors, on 28 March 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

More people want to play them because they're successful and good at killing noobs. Why does that have to imply they're OP and need a nerf? As far as I can recall, boating has always been a part of MechWarrior.

People like you where banned back on our servers. People that didn't get the idea behind Mechwarrior or Battletech for that part. People that didn't care for what Battletech is all about. Background, awesome fights over prolonged time, nailbiter duels that went on for minutes at times.

Or in short

"I NEED TO KILL AS FAST AS POSSIBLE WITH AS LESS EFFORT AS POSSIBLE CUZ I'M SO UBERLEET MY NUTS WILL EXPLODE WHEN I CANNOT KILL THIS NOOB RIGHT NOW OMG WOOT TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOL"

Players like you.

Everyone can build a high Alpha build and hit fire. EVERYBODY. I repeat thats not what Battletech or Mechwarrior is about. It never was and it will never be, even if you repeat it 1 Billion additional times. I know it and the Veterans know it. High Alpha builds are for pilots that are too bad to prevail in any other way then hitting the big fat Panic button until either one of two things happens. First they explode or second the enemy explodes. Alpha Strikes are reffered to as last resort option on many occasions. I challenge all you high skillers of the wolrd wide internetzZZzZz to fight in stockmechs for 1 week and be good at it. Then come back and brag about it.

You guys play No Mechwarrior you guys play CoD with Mechs.

And at no point do i find sitting on a hill with 6 ER PPC to kill anything that dares moving in any way or form tactical or challenging. Its plain stupid. You have no survivability if you're attacked up close by lets say a jenner. Your only goal is to end as many fights as possible till it happens. GG Re F-ing Tards really.

Battletech is much like hiking. You do it for the fun of it not to get to the finish line first.

Edited by Jack Corban, 30 March 2013 - 03:54 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Well, here's a though.

Instead of having a FIXED timer for when heatsinks start to vent heat, how about having heatsinks to work faster the less heat is created at a given time.

Firing a single weapon giving 1 heat gets the HS to start working after X time

Firing mutiple weapons giving 4 heat gets the HS to work after X+40% time

FIRING ALL THE LAZORS!!! gets the heatsinks some hickup since you just went to 95% heat in one instant and the heatsinks works overtime to catch up so the heat dissipation now takes +100% time before it kicks in.

It would also add another level to heat management.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 29 March 2013 - 01:42 AM.

[Sephlock]

After some consideration, I've decided to agree with the OP...

IF we can complete the picture:



I mean, if we're gonna have a pillow fight anyway...

[MustrumRidcully]

Jack Corban, on 29 March 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

People like you where banned back on our servers. People that didn't get the idea behind Mechwarrior or Battletech for that part. People that didn't care for what Battletech is all about. Background, awesome fights over prolonged time, nailbiter duels that went one for minutes at times.

Or in short

"I NEED TO KILL AS FAST AS POSSIBLE WITH AS LESS EFFORT AS POSSIBLE CUZ I'M SO UBERLEET MY NUTS WILL EXPLODE WHEN I CANNOT KILL THIS NOOB RIGHT NOW OMG WOOT TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOL"

Players like you.

Everyone can build a high Alpha build and hit fire. EVERYBODY. I repeat thats not what Battletech or Mechwarrior is about. It never was and it will never be, even if you repeat it 1 Billion additional times. I know it and the Veterans know it. High Alpha builds are for pilots that are too bad to prevail in any other way then hitting the big fat Panic button until either one of two things happens. First they explode or second the enemy explodes. Alpha Strikes are reffered to as last resort option on many occasions. I challenge all you high skillers of the wolrd wide internetzZZzZz to fight in stockmechs for 1 week and be good at it. Then come back and brag about it.

You guys play No Mechwarrior you guys play CoD with Mechs.

And at no point do i find sitting on a hill with 6 ER PPC to kill anything that dares moving in any way or form tactical or challenging. Its plain stupid. You have no survivability if you're attacked up close by lets say a jenner. Your only goal is to end as many fights as possible till it happens. GG Re F-ing Tards really.

Battletech is much like hiking. You do it for the fun of it not to get to the finish line first.

If that's not what Battletech is about... Then maybe the game mechanics should support and encourage what it is about and hinder and discourage what it is not about?

Players just do what works best. Why shouldn't they, winning is fun and kinda the point of games like this.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 29 March 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

I think a slight change in heat mechanic could help.

The problem is the hyperspecialized builds that while excellent at their job to pound an enemy into dust leaves the team weaker the moment something throws a wrench into the works of the build.

Like a team of 2 Jenners against a X6 ERPPC Stalker turret.

Flexible builds are more helpful to the team as a whole while the hyperspecs are helpful to a singular player...that is until he gets killed.

I play both parts but I'd like to see a more flexible heat mechanic where the countdown for heatsinks are increased the more heat is accumulated in a short amount of time.

[Jack Corban]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 March 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

If that's not what Battletech is about... Then maybe the game mechanics should support and encourage what it is about and hinder and discourage what it is not about?

Players just do what works best. Why shouldn't they, winning is fun and kinda the point of games like this.

Indeed they should but i guess a devteam full of monkeys riding up and down the moneytrain in their office is not caring for what Battletech means to some of us. They want the quick $ and appeal to as many Asberger clients as possible to grab more $ and then when the game finally dies, shut off the servers and ruin what ever next IP they can get their hands on.

I'm so happy i supported this game right now that i'm secretly happy that the Unseens will never be in this game to escape the humiliation to be part of somthing that turned out to be as awefull as is right now. Despite all the promise it had at the beginning.

I see but one way to redeem this pile of Cow dung from this point of Metagame. Give the game Hardpoint restrictions that will not let you put a bigger gun to the hardpoint then it had to begin with. As example if there was a "Large Laser" you can put a "Medium Laser" in that place or a "ER Large Laser" or a "Small Laser" but no "PPC". Same for every weapon group. This prevents overly cheese builds and also insures that the original Mechroll that was intendet gets keept to a degree.

And if your really need to put a PPC into that spot you lose one of maybe 2 Hardpoints and have your PPC but nothing else in that spot .

Edited by Jack Corban, 29 March 2013 - 02:14 AM.

[Forestal]

I remember the Devs agreeing about wanting longer battles-- which was why they doubled the armor value, and kept nerfing this weapon or that...


Notice that the Devs never went about actually buffing (or agreeing to buff) specific weapons/builds-- but in the process of nerfing, err, I mean "balancing" this or that weapon/build, they keep forgetting to ask what/who they were "balancing" things IN FAVOR OF.

IOW, I think there's shift towards quick brawls these days (apart from sales, influx of new players, double xp/cbill weekend, etc.) because they made it quite clear-- without actually needing to say anything-- that certain weapons/ builds were "support-ONLY"...

So instead of a variety of tactics/ builds with the wide array of equipment/weapons available, players naturally gravitated towards high "damage-per-second"...


In fact, I suspect that the only reason the Devs refuse to nerf, err, I mean "balance" the ECM is because it is the only thing which they were certain would force a "stealth/ tactical" element into the game.

Edited by Forestal, 29 March 2013 - 02:18 AM.