148 replies to this topic

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Greyfyl, on 29 March 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

There are so many things wrong with the game at this point that I don't even know where to start with this whole thread.

You got that right.

To address the OP, Paintball/airsoft/simunitions/MILES isn't analogous to MWO/BT at all. To any infantry game, its perfectly analogous. Armored warfare is more analogous, but still lacking. Battletech Mech Combat is completely unique (at least I can't think of another mech game that has components)

Alpha builds are part of Battletech. But where this deviates some is the ability to put all the firepower you have in one spot..

Edited by JohanssenJr, 29 March 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Frozen Winter]

I prefer longer fights. I'm alright with how things are now but I would like for the structure hitpoints to double along with the ammo per ton. I really do like the idea of big, stompy robots. That is how I describe it to my friends what game it is I'm playing. If things get cut back in half again, eh? I won't have as much fun. Then you get the snipers blowing up everyone before they get into range. Provided people aren't using cover of course. It'll make the matches 3 minutes instead. While the turnover was nice, there wasn't enough time to really get into a match before it was over. Doubly so for PuGs.

[HRR Insanity]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 29 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

As I noted, gauss could be adjusted via recycle times. AC's already generate decent heat, and would be affected, simply adding a little more heat if needed would work. Overall lowering the heatcap would still accomplish the goal of culling alpha boating heavily.

Unless Gauss recycle were >10 seconds, hitting one spot with 2 GR is probably still going to be better than generating 1000 heat after a heat-based boat balance attempt. And this still doesn't deal with the fact that heat based anti-boating strategies penalize light 'Mechs which can't carry large weapons due to tonnage.

[Teralitha]

HRR Insanity, on 29 March 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Unless Gauss recycle were >10 seconds, hitting one spot with 2 GR is probably still going to be better than generating 1000 heat after a heat-based boat balance attempt. And this still doesn't deal with the fact that heat based anti-boating strategies penalize light 'Mechs which can't carry large weapons due to tonnage.

I have never considered the guasspult overpowering. It was the most heat efficient build while we had single HS yes, but OP?(Even the gausspult shut down from heat on caustic near the caldera) All I can say is, I never owned one because in my experience they were always an easy kill.

Its pretty much the same deal when talking about LRMs. If you stand still out in the open and dont move, the guasspult is your worst enemy. Moving around and using some cover pretty much nerfed the guasspult. Its a good build, but was never OP. 30 damage is nothing. Any medium mech could do that much or more. Other Heavy and assault had bigger damage than that.

Besides they already nerfed the guass rifle. Its easy to crit and destroy. Its perfectly safe for us to change heat efficiency to balance everything else.

Edited by Teralitha, 29 March 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Mercules, on 29 March 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Yes I know... but high damage alphas do actually create more One-Shot-One-Kill situations.

If they fix ammo so that it has to be placed in the mech in either the section or an adjacent section as the item using it... it becomes easy to predict where ammo is. You can then drill through a Torso with a high damage alpha, crit the ammo, and kill the whole mech if they don't have case.

What do you mean "fix" it so ammo has to be near the weapon? I don't remember that rule from the TT.

And when you talk about high damage alphas creating one shot kills, they also cause one shot misses.

Cerberias, on 29 March 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Misses punish you hard as is, As I said before, players with higher skill will do both higher DPS and DPH, you ever missed with a 6ppc stalker and then gone 'ah ******, im dead because i missed'.

^ This

Mercules, on 29 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Yes... delicate... That means getting hit with a shorter ranged AC/20 should possibly rip my arm off. A Gauss should take the armor off my arm. Convergence however means that 2 AC/20s will rip a whole torso out instead of damaging the RT and CT heavily. That's not delicate, it is bordering on "OMG don't ever stop moving, slow down much, run in a straight line, or do anything predictable!"

Do you mean to say that there are light pilots out there that are slowing down and running straight lines? Someone should teach them how to play. Should probably be doing it on heavies and assaults too as a matter of fact. Stupidity is just more forgiving in an assault.



Let's first dispel the myth that there are 1 shot kills in this game other than the head or on people that put no armor on their back. What most people are talking about is "I was all beat up and this guy shot me 1 more time and I died!!!" or "I ran at 8 enemy mechs and they killed me in 1 shot! (really many many shots very quickly)"

If you got shot in the back you deserve it.

If they hit your head while you are moving they were lucky. More likely you shut down right in front of them with your cockpit perfectly lined up with their guns.

Then there are lights, they move very fast but as someone pointed out above some of them think that slowing down to shoot you is a good idea or that running in a straight line towards you or away from you is going to make them magically invincible. Most volleys at a fast moving light are going to miss and usually a 1 shot kill is due to a large tonnage differential.

This is all as it should be.

[Khobai]

Greyfyl, on 29 March 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

There are so many things wrong with the game at this point that I don't even know where to start with this whole thread.

lol pretty much.

honestly I think weapon balance should be somewhere in the middle of the priority list though. Its not the biggest problem this game has. And I think were getting too hung up on it.

the biggest priority for PGI right now should be giving us a gamemode that's more fun and engaging. And also some better looking maps that actually take advantage of cryengine 3. Why the MWLL maps that were made by ONE guy look so much better than MWO's maps that were made by a team of people is beyond me. I mean its the same game engine, same development tools, etc...

I mean look how awesome the MWLL maps are, and this isnt even one of the best looking maps-

Edited by Khobai, 30 March 2013 - 12:35 AM.

[Yokaiko]

HRR Insanity, on 29 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Please explain how doing anything at all to the heat cap prevents Gauss or AC boating.

Are we really worried about "AC boating" now? That would be a first.

[MustrumRidcully]

HRR Insanity, on 29 March 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Unless Gauss recycle were >10 seconds, hitting one spot with 2 GR is probably still going to be better than generating 1000 heat after a heat-based boat balance attempt. And this still doesn't deal with the fact that heat based anti-boating strategies penalize light 'Mechs which can't carry large weapons due to tonnage.

I don't know what Colonel Pada's vision here is, but what I would do to deal with alpha strike capability:

Weapons that have high damage values get instead a lower damage value but a higher rate of fire.

A Gauss Rifle might change from 15 damage / 4 seconds weapon into a 8 damage / 2 seconds weapons*.
An AC/20 might change from 20 damage / 4 seconds to 12 damage / 2 seconds.

If we forget for a moment how MW:O adapted table top values, values I might use this conversion algorithm:

Take the table top damage, divide it by 12 to determine a base damage value. Then find a factor for damage that will be used as recycle time. Find a factor from 6, 4, 3, 2 and 1 where the base damage value times the factor is below 4, and the damage is at least half the weapons table top damage value. Also try to ensure that the damage per shot is at least equal or exceeds the damage of a weapon with a lower table top damage figure.

Optional Step: If values don't look neat, too small or too high, find a factor for damage and if necessary, adjust armour values by that factor as well.

Possible Results
Small Laser: 1.5 damage / 6 seconds
Medium Laser: 1.66 damage / 4 seconds
Large Laser: 2 damage / 3 seconds
PPC: 2.5 damage / 3 seconds
AC/2: 1 damage / 6 seconds
AC/5: 1.66 damage / 4 seconds
AC10: 2.5 damage / 3 seconds
AC/20: 5 damage / 3 seconds
Gauss Rifle: 3 damage / 3 seconds
Ultra AC/5: 1.66 damage / 4 seconds; Or 1.66 damage / 2 seconds with Jam Chance

SRM6: 3 damage / 3 seconds
SRM4: 2 damage / 3 seconds
SRM2: 1 damage / 3 seconds

LRM20: 5 damage / 3 seconds
LRM15: 3 damage / 3 seconds
LRM10: 2.5 damage / 3 seconds
LRM5: 1.66 damage / 4 seconds


Alpha Strike Capabilities under this Model (imagine all this against undoubled armour):
Hexa PPC: 15 damage
Dual Gauss: 6 damage
Dual AC/20: 10 damage
6 SRM6: 18 damage
Quad LRM20: 20 damage

Quite workable values, IMO. And we still preserve the general trends from the table top regarding alpha strike and single hit location damage - the heavier a weapon, the more impressive. The difference is smaller, however, and the total of "stacking" weapons is lower. One-hit wonders are unlikely.


(*No, that doesn't retain the DPS, but we need to give it a bit to compensate that we just took away a lot of alpha capability. If you look at a shorter time interval, say, 5 seconds, a Gauss Rifle could before deal 30 damage (firing at 0, 4), now it can deal (firing at 0, 2, 4) 24 - that is a significant reduction in burst capability.)

[Yokaiko]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 March 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

Quite workable values, IMO. And we still preserve the general trends from the table top regarding alpha strike and single hit location damage - the heavier a weapon, the more impressive. The difference is smaller, however, and the total of "stacking" weapons is lower. One-hit wonders are unlikely.

How many times have people beat that drum since July? I've taken an expect the worst approach at this point.

[wargonglok]

I think you may be confused as to what game this is. I personally think they should quadruple all armor values from the start (so double the current ones). Think of it this way: Halo 4/COD/Battlefield = wrestling, Battletech = Sumo Wrestling
Wrestling is very quick and matches are done quickly, but in a sumo match, if both men are about even, then it can take a while for them to push eachother out. Battletech is all about meaningful, intelligent decisions, less twitch and more footwork/movement. This is tons of armor we are talking about, it shouldnt be burned off in seconds.

[El Death Smurf]

i got to "i play paintball" and stoped there. lol. as if that's ever substance for any kind authority on any matter.

[ElLocoMarko]

I disagree because there is no respawn (and I don't want it). These are 25 - 100 ton walking tanks from the future. If they go nuclear when some whiny X-wing pilot slots a tiny rocket down a pipe...

You like flanking. We can work with that. Perhaps you should take one teammate with you in this team-oriented game. Two flankers that succeed at surprise are likely to achieve great destruction well out of their weight class before they get stomped. At least they did when those back line players were toting LRM. When LRM comes back you will feel useful again.

As a flanker you should be railing against the lack of an ECM mech in somewhere in the middle of 35T and 100T.

Where do you draw the line at killing power for a back shot. Can 6 medium lasers do it? Cause there is a Jenner and Cicada that can put that kind of firepower into your back all day long, no problem?

Why does my tank even have a head and glass. It should be fly by wire... you know like those high tech neanderthals from the 20th century.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 30 March 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[Rigiroth]

How many high-alpha builds actually flank? How many of them just run out and blow away enemy mechs from a few hundred meters away in an open confrontation? If an assault manages to flank an enemy team, it is rewarded by being an 80-100 ton monster that splits up the enemy force giving his team an opening to pincer them. Your example works against you because the longer the mech is alive, the more tactical his flank was. With extremely high burst damage, the assault flanks and gets obliterated without dividing the enemy team and he has now hurt his team.

[LordBraxton]

FupDup, on 28 March 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

They should've halved it.

And double weapon damage and recycle times

Edited by LordBraxton, 30 March 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[Skadi]

HRR Insanity, on 28 March 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

This is not paintball. This is 'Mech combat. 'Mechs are supposed to be able to tolerate fire and return it. Not explode instantly upon sight of an enemy.

The game will remain broken until some form of weapon/damage spread is implemented to combat pinpoint accuracy.

And im sorry but I can never agree with CoF's in this game. it cannot be compensated for, it slaps in the face of skilled pilots, it laughs at people who have good aim. it is literaly there to **** you over no matter what. its bad... its luck based... if I wanted to depend on luck ide play table top.

Edited by Skadi, 30 March 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

I agree to a point. I do believe that the ability to rapidly inflict heavy damage and the ability to location-target to cripple or destroy an enemy quickly are important to having good and varied gameplay; I'm not sure that "one-shotting" is entirely necessary as a component of that; frankly, high alpha builds are sort of the low-hanging fruit in terms of risk/reward and risk/skill. If I can aim once and have six PPCs hit the exact same location, for instance, that's a hell of a lot less challenging than trying to individually chain-fire six PPCs into the same location; it also allows me to twist or maneuver to mitigate damage immediately after firing rather than remaining exposed to well-placed return fire.

This makes builds that rely on varied weapons types much more challenging to play (since you need to maintain different leads on moving targets) and ultimately you receive less rewards for doing so - I've run my JMS-6S with a dual-AC/20 config and with a quad-MLas and dual-AC/10 config; while my accuracy rate for the autocannons doesn't vary a lot between both builds (and my accuracy with MLas exceeds any other weapon by a double-digit percentage), I get easily 3x as many kills with the dual-AC/20, even in matches where I did comparable damage with both builds. Nothing can stand up to 40 points of point damage from those twin AC/20s, while keeping the damage from two dissimilar weapon types in the same spot is much more difficult (and can be prevented by a twisting opponent); and even while the other build hypothetically has the same alpha and much better DPS, I need to keep my frontal arc exposed much longer in order to use that DPS (meaning I can't soak damage with my arms instead). I don't feel either build really took more creativity to cook up than the other, either, and the high-alpha build only sacrifices a few kph in running speed as a trade-off.

So while I think high front-loaded damage and location targeting have viable roles on the battlefield, right now the only possible reason not to use them is if you can carry several of the light ballistics (or SSRMs) that can rock an opponent so badly that they can't return fire effectively, and while I enjoy "balanced" builds and the flexibility they give me, I have to admit that they generally underperform set-ups where I can just group an entire battery of the same weapon together and pound the backslash key with my forehead. And when a game is basically punishing variety and the deeper play it brings, that;s a bad thing.

[Adridos]

"Faster kill combat is deeper and thus the existence of alpha and pinpoint aim is a good thing"

Fast kill combat with alpha builds: http://t0.gstatic.co...8CmgRdaD1wFM10Q

Slower combat in terms of TTK and with need of more than 1 weapon usage: http://www.spieleped...er_CD_Front.jpg

I don' think CoD is more deeper than Tribes 2, my friend.

Edited by Adridos, 30 March 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Skadi]

Adridos, on 30 March 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

"Faster kill combat is deeper and thus the existence of alpha and pinpoint aim is a good thing"

Fast kill combat with alpha builds: http://t0.gstatic.co...8CmgRdaD1wFM10Q

Slower combat in terms of TTK and with need of more than 1 weapon usage: http://www.spieleped...er_CD_Front.jpg

I don' think CoD is more deeper than Tribes 2, my friend.

Tribes 2 had spinfusors, CoD does not /game

[Karr285]

BigJim, on 29 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Incorrect - The devs made a choice to double armour. Not you, I nor anyone else has any idea whether or not it invalidates the OP's point or not.

Oh yeah. PERIOD. Sorry, I almost forgot that part.

Why did they make this choice??? because mechs were dieing too fast so, "Faster-Kill Combat Is Deeper, And Thus The Existence Of Alpha Builds And Pinpoint Aim Is A Good Thing" obviously instead of doing anything about convergence since they want to keep this game "skill based" they doubled armour to slow down deaths so yes it does invalidate his point.

Edited by Karr285, 30 March 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[HRR Insanity]

Skadi, on 30 March 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

And im sorry but I can never agree with CoF's in this game. it cannot be compensated for, it slaps in the face of skilled pilots, it laughs at people who have good aim. it is literaly there to **** you over no matter what. its bad... its luck based... if I wanted to depend on luck ide play table top.

It can be compensated for if designed and implemented well. Especially since CoF would only apply to GROUPS of weapons. Single weapons would still be pinpoint accurate (as long as they were not fired in quick succession, ~0.5 sec between shots to let the CoF evaporate).

So, your choices are:

- Single fire a weapon with pinpoint precision with time enough to let the next shot be pinpoint accurate as well.
- Group fire weapons or fire lots of weapons rapidly and be subject to weapon spread with cone of fire determined in part by heat, # of weapons, and movement.

If you always want pinpoint accurate shots, fire one weapon at a time.

If you want the potential advantage to firing multiple weapons simultaneously to increase DPS, then you are subject to weapon spread as noted.

If you don't want to risk weapon spread, build your 'Mech to rely on single big weapons fired carefully.

No one is affected by the cone of fire unless they CHOOSE to be.

This is balanced and allows individual weapons to be strong vs. armor without being unbalanced in groups.

It's the only way to fix the system.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 30 March 2013 - 02:43 PM.