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Conceptual Remodel Of Lrms


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Poll: LRM Remodel (11 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you support the OP's suggestion?

  1. Yes (8 votes [72.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 72.73%

  2. No (3 votes [27.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.27%

  3. Abstain (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 Aim64C

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:42 PM

Having seen the complaints the community has with LRMs (as they were) and the circus that they have become, I have put considerable thought to a mechanic that would best address the issues of LRMs.

Let me be clear: Any player who refuses to recognize the value of a weapon system being deployed against them can and will likely be defeated, justifiably. Walking into the open with your Atlas like you can tank the whole team is a bad idea - regardless of what weapons are being used on you.

That said - the complaints with LRMs are as follows: Behavior is too inconsistent with the effect of the game in canon battletech for the weapon values to be reconciled. Spread, damage, and homing characteristics are nearly impossible to develop so that there is a relatively comparable performance across all target classes (light mechs will be next to invulnerable unless you turn missiles into assault mech coring nightmares).

The problem stems from LRM behavior.

LRMs do not behave in a manner comparable to real missiles. Real missiles do not "follow" the target. They intercept the target, detonating a claymore-like warhead to create a cone of shrapnel that the target flies into (in air-to-air missiles). This is reminiscent of the random clustering effect of the table-top game.

So - the best way to balance LRMs is to implement behavior that is a logical extension of real missile behavior into the battletech universe (well - assuming that missiles like the Javelin are ineffective at hitting a mech-like target and a clustering behavior is more ideal).

Thus, I present my humble attempts at an artistic engineering depiction with free-hand drawings and some supporting resources to further illustrate the point:

Posted Image

The key change is that missiles do two things - project a ballistic intercept trajectory ("shoot where the target will be instead of where it is"), and that they will have no guidance once the volley spreads into a cone.

LRMs would fly 'straight' for the first 35% of the distance to the target (as it was during launch) at a 45 degree angle before they are fed a ballistic intercept trajectory. This ballistic intercept is updated periodically before a terminal guidance phase that puts the missiles on roughly a 35 degree approach (relative to the map's XY plane). 45 meters from the target, accurate guidance to the target is assumed impossible and the missile swarm scatters across a cone of 10-15 degrees (which computes to a cone with a diameter of about 16 meters to 24 meters).

For an example of how real missile systems work:



The key point to carry across, here, is that we are replacing one missile with up to twenty. The reason for this is the presumed difficulty of achieving high PK (probability kill) with a single missile system. Since you are striking an armored target - fragmentation warheads would be useless (as compared to unarmored aircraft). Thus, a swarm of missiles are used, and each missile carries a HEAT warhead - the cluster scattering to improve the odds of hitting a maneuvering target.

Naturally, smaller mechs will be less likely to receive damage while larger mechs will be more likely to receive damage, but distributed. Effectiveness against maneuvering mechs would be improved while not creating a hopeless scenario for larger mechs. Cover would still be effective, but simply running crazy through the open is a strategy available to only the fastest of mechs.

There is another reason for this suggested change - the number of factors available for balance. The range at which the missiles scatter, the degree to which they scatter, the damage they do, their splash effects (if any), velocity, and numerous characteristics about their intercept path can be tweaked separately to a honed form that allows for good gameplay across a wide range of the community (some players will just not get the idea of cover).

It should be noted that I have not properly accounted for TAG and NARC effects - TAG should give roughly a 12 degree cone at 45 meters - not quite as effective as Artemis (the two should not stack for gameplay reasons), but transferable to other systems.

NARC should allow for "fire and forget" functionality once a target lock is acquired. Lock - fire - lend attention to something else. NARC beacons should also last indefinitely until the target has taken between 40 and 80 points of damage (with the probability going from 10% to 100% incrimentally). But that is a bit of a different debate.

Further, I have attempted to track down mathematical references for how to go about computing ballistic intercepts with source code. In the event developers (and/or community) see this as a good idea, they aren't left to try and figure it all out on their own (we can't expect the developers to simply know how to make any and all code that could ever exist for any process under the sun).

The best source is this: http://www.codeproje...-Guidance-Syste

Not only is that open source code, it's also a functional illustration of the mathematics involved.

For those whose interest has been piqued:

http://en.wikipedia....issile_guidance

http://www.fas.org/m.../fun/part15.htm

http://www.fas.org/m.../fun/part19.htm

Edit: ... For whatever reason - the poll didn't take like I originally structured it...

http://www.fas.org/n...sile/basics.htm - This last one is mostly in regards to ballistic missiles rather than interception missiles.

Edited by Aim64C, 29 March 2013 - 02:35 PM.
Changed poll answers to follow the rules


#2 Capt Cole 117

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:26 PM

There was a World in conflict mod on moddb, you could try asking them for source code.

#3 Egomane

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:57 AM

Closed!

I changed your poll so it follows the rules. If you change it back, you leave me no choice!

Edit:
Re-opened after communication with Aim64C.
He will recreate the poll to follow the rules. :P

Edited by Egomane, 29 March 2013 - 01:26 PM.


#4 Aim64C

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:49 PM

View PostCapt Cole 117, on 28 March 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

There was a World in conflict mod on moddb, you could try asking them for source code.


http://www.moddb.com...ance-principles

You would be referring to this?



That is, actually, a much better graphical representation of 'true' missile behavior (engagement ranges in real life are often so large that you can't really see what is going on... other than in simulators, where you fire a missile and the thing takes off in the opposite facing of your target and are like: "WTF.... *boom* ... Oh! Cool!" )

Edit: For the love of all things holy - I cannot seem to find the magical tag necessary to show a video... which is odd, considering the OP....

Edit Edit: Apparently, I was using some wonky "featured" URL, which was creating the complications. Additionally, it seems the board is smarter than me, as all I need to do is post a youtube link and it will automatically add the media tags, accordingly.

Edited by Aim64C, 29 March 2013 - 04:14 PM.


#5 Egomane

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:42 PM

Use [media ] [ /media] tags. They work fine. :)

#6 Aeolus Drift

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:35 PM

Hmm. this is a very interesting idea, and its very well articulated. The implications that this LRM model have the potential of solving a lot of the perceived problems within the current system, while allowing for some more subtle downsides which could allow more unique counter-play. It also seems to me that this type of model would synergize incredibly well with the roll of the Artemis-IV tracking system, from both a lore and gameplay perspective. Out of curiosity, how would your system handle the LRMs role in indirect fire-support as well. or would that be something that would need additional research for the developers.

#7 Aim64C

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:59 PM

View PostInterceptor12, on 30 March 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, how would your system handle the LRMs role in indirect fire-support as well. or would that be something that would need additional research for the developers.


This one gets a little iffy.

There are multiple ways the LRMs could be considered to function within the methods described here: http://www.moddb.com...7d16fd27f54154d

In the direct-fire role, LRMs can be assumed to be IR guided. Modern missiles like the Aim9X impose a datalinking principle on top of this, where the Combat Network feeds the missile data about its target when the missile does not have a positive track in its own seeker (such as if the missile is using extreme maneuvers that take the seeker out of view of the target). Overlaying this with the Battletech universe, we would have a system where the spotter is feeding information to the network, which is then fed to the missiles via the firing mech.


Here's where things get tricky. A real world system this complex would take into account terrain and obstacles that the mech could detect, and the missiles would navigate around these hazards and adopt a very steep terminal intercept (th

Edited by Aim64C, 30 March 2013 - 02:02 PM.


#8 Team Leader

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:46 PM

While I would really like having this in game, at the glacial pace we are at, it would take forever for them to put in ;)

#9 Fud

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:51 PM

The current missile implementation often doesn't behave as one might expect. I'd much prefer this system.

#10 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:58 PM

sounds like mech3 LRMS to me...man I miss those.

#11 focuspark

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 07:01 AM

Good suggestions, the referenced source is useless due to license issues (as most open source code is).

#12 Aim64C

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:17 AM

View Postfocuspark, on 31 March 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

Good suggestions, the referenced source is useless due to license issues (as most open source code is).


The source code reference wasn't necessarily for the purpose of "copy/paste." The math behind proportional navigation is not subject to licensing/legal issues - and the source for any of it would largely be irrelevant to MWO. The reason for citing it was to give an idea of how other people have accomplished the code - examples of what the subroutine needs to know (and how it attains that information or what subroutines resolve that information).

Exactly how the developers would go about implementing such a thing would depend entirely upon how their own program works. I'm not sure exactly how heavily modified the CryEngine is. A lot of engines, these days, allow for powerful parsing of scripts into their code (even going "way back" to the days of 2001). I've seen 'simple' mod projects (that did not modify the executable) do absolutely amazing things to a game (Renegade: A Path Beyond - modified some of the DLLs and added a number of graphical features to the game that were the result of much later DirectX revisions).

#13 Aeolus Drift

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:08 PM

allied tactical bump incoming.

#14 Aeolus Drift

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:00 PM

second allied tactical bump incoming!

#15 Vrekgar

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:16 PM

http://en.wikipedia....surface_missile

This is what missiles in game currently are. your proposed idea is predicated on the flawed assumption that all missiles explode before they contact the target.

In addition many missiles receive updated guidance or have their own internal guidance systems to seek a given set of target conditions. Also not every missile attacks the target in the same way. For example AntiTank missiles frequently do not directly strike the armor but instead fly over and use a shaped charge directed downwards.

The primary "Problem" with the missile system is a lack of meaningful control by the user. Once fired they seek only the lockon and the primary target point for the lockon is the CT section of the mech. Once lock is lost the missiles travel ballisticly until lockon is reestablished, they impact something, or they burnout @1000m.

A FAR FAR better system idea is to implement a laser guidance system much like what rockets in Half Life 2 used. They were either dumbfire and did not guide at all, or they sought the red dot laser. This way the launching mech has to lase a target accurately and you can avoid the "All missiles aim for the CT" problem. It would introduce a new dynamic of skill in missile use and control. Tag lasers from allies would allow you to lock onto the designated tag target and "handoff" missile control after launch to the tag using mech! Narc would allow you to lock the target and fire like currently, and considering how terrible narc is right now its not such a bad boost.

#16 Aeolus Drift

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:23 PM

View PostVrekgar, on 23 April 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....surface_missile

This is what missiles in game currently are. your proposed idea is predicated on the flawed assumption that all missiles explode before they contact the target.

In addition many missiles receive updated guidance or have their own internal guidance systems to seek a given set of target conditions. Also not every missile attacks the target in the same way. For example AntiTank missiles frequently do not directly strike the armor but instead fly over and use a shaped charge directed downwards.

The primary "Problem" with the missile system is a lack of meaningful control by the user. Once fired they seek only the lockon and the primary target point for the lockon is the CT section of the mech. Once lock is lost the missiles travel ballisticly until lockon is reestablished, they impact something, or they burnout @1000m.

A FAR FAR better system idea is to implement a laser guidance system much like what rockets in Half Life 2 used. They were either dumbfire and did not guide at all, or they sought the red dot laser. This way the launching mech has to lase a target accurately and you can avoid the "All missiles aim for the CT" problem. It would introduce a new dynamic of skill in missile use and control. Tag lasers from allies would allow you to lock onto the designated tag target and "handoff" missile control after launch to the tag using mech! Narc would allow you to lock the target and fire like currently, and considering how terrible narc is right now its not such a bad boost.


I think your suggestion for the primary would compliment the artemis IV guidance system well. though it does seem to overlap with the functionality of tag a bit much.

#17 Aeolus Drift

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:26 AM

On a second note Vrekgar, I don't think the OP is unaware that most missiles don't explode before impact with the target. The suggestion however isn't discussing about when the point of detonation occurs, or how it occurs, but rather about what is the optimal method in which to program the missile's guidance system, and deciding wether it should be a "chaser" or an "interceptor". I think most of us are well aware that actual long range guidance systems in today's world would attempt to correct for some irregularities in its flight pattern, but these are things which can be accounted for during the coding's development.





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