35 replies to this topic

[TheFlyingScotsman]

TLDR skim by only reading bold.

This isn't going to be the most helpful guide to new players, but then again, new players should probably start with a RVN-3L or CMD-2D to get accustomed to lights before trying a Spider. (Or JNR) All in all, the Spider takes a lot of concentration to pilot to its full potential, and is unforgiving to piloting errors.

Alrighty. Despite getting some incredibly bad rep, the spider is a useful tool when used correctly. While it does not have the stopping power or light killing ability of other lights, it is still a very useful and deadly tool. Keep in mind that the spider requires constant use of jumpjets, and can be very difficult to converge with in mid air. (Where you will have the best los against targets.)

First, a few of the viable builds, in order of my favorites. ERPPC builds should currently be avoided, at least until the coding for direct fire projectiles is fixed. (You will miss other lights even when you hit, most of the time.) All builds should use a mandatory XL255 and 6-8JJ. Speed and flight are everything to the spider. Armor is always maxed everywhere but the LA, which is mostly useless as a shield arm, or for any other purposes. Ferro can be used in many situations to free up half a ton for some armor or a JJ. All builds here use Endo-steel and a Guardian ECM.

3ML - 12DHS - 7JJ
2MPL - 11DHS - 8JJ
1LL + Tag - 10DHS - 6JJ (Or 8JJ without TAG.)
1ERPPC - 10DHS - 4JJ (Works well enough against large targets, but the lack of 4JJ really hurts this one. It is more for in-group support, and doesnt make very good use of the chassis.)

Flight/Survival

1: Jump intelligently. The 5D can easily out-survive a RVN-3L if you are cautious about when and where you jump. Jumps make you a hard target for anything but lasers as long as you don't land out in the open. If you must land in the open, never never NEVER land running in the same direction you were moving in air, or you will get a gauss round or two in the face. Never jump while moving directly towards an enemy, or when running below full speed.

2: F*ck Gravity. Seriously. F*ck it. When you are on the ground regaining fuel or covering distance, you are an easy target. When running, jink (sway back and forth) constantly, and use shortjumps (tap space briefly) to make sharp, sudden directional changes. This makes you a much harder target, especially at 137.7 (or 151.5 with elite).

3: Always Jump-Strike. When in air, you can see over many pieces of cover, allowing you to harass enemies who wont be able to fire back once you ease off the jets. You can also easily fire from cover of your own, landing in cover again after. Ideally, you should be grounded as little as possible during actual combat, but not use all your fuel for any one jump if possible.

4: Deadly Support. While the 5D can only swing about 10-15 FP, being the most agile chassis (and having an ECM) in the game has its perks. You can easily kill lone stragglers by coring their backside, using your speed, shorthops and the ability to jump directly over them to keep out of danger. Otherwise, the spider is deadly for what it lets your team do, not what it does itself. The spider is one of the best 'Mechs to partner with LRM support, as there isn't a 'Mech in the game that can outrun or outmaneuver them.

5: Run around like an (unpredictable) *****! The spider is the ultimate distraction. By harrying enemies, you can direct fire away from your team and keep your enemies distracted, reducing the damage your team takes substantially. On top of this, the ECM will get you targeted, making your job even easier. If the enemy ignores you, you can simply get behind them and strip off their rear armor.

I hope this guide helps some people dispel their frustration with with the 5D (IMHO the only viable SDR variant)

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 31 March 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Tahribator]

As a long time Spider pilot, I can only recommend this guide. A guide endorsing excessive JJ usage on a Spider is a good one.

I also stress that Spider is an extremely mobile harassing mech, not a damage dealer. If you're trying to put heavy weapons(like PPC or AC5's) on it by stripping JJ's, then you're just making it worse. This mech wants to fly, take a potshot at an Atlas, get his attention, distract him for a good 2 minutes then disappear leaving Atlas in the middle of nowhere, harass somebody else and come back when Atlas ready to join the battle again.

Spider is the ultimate troll mech in this game, use it like one!

[Durant Carlyle]

My "Recluse" (Spider-5D) is my favorite 'Mech at the moment. Nice and fast (but not the fastest), maneuverable (but not maximum), decent firepower (still a plinker though), heavily armored (for a light).

240XL
6 JJ
11 DHS
Endo Steel
208 Standard armor
BAP
ECM
3 ML

W/L is 1.04 (25 wins, 24 losses). K/D is 2.14 (45 kills, 21 deaths). 94.04% accuracy (3,761 ML shots, 3,537 ML hits). Doing 3.41 damage per shot (3,537 ML hits, 12,065 ML damage). Of course, some of my other builds use ML, but 11,084 damage was done by Spider-5D specifically (so 91.87% of the total ML damage came from Spider-5D). Whee! Such a fun 'Mech!

I've always been a run-jump-and-gun harasser, so this 'Mech is pretty much perfect for me. I still run my Jenner-D and Spider-5K/5V fairly often so I don't learn to rely too much on the ECM.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 30 March 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

The thing is, the XL255 is the most effective engine that doesn't need additional DHS. By using a smaller engine, you are still using the same tonnage for the same HE, only without the benefit of the speed. I reccomend never even touching another engine in the 5D, because other engines are a waste.

You see, the 250 is the first engine to have the full 10DHS, and weighs exactly as much as the 255. Anything below this requires a 1T external DHS, making the 245 weight almost as much as the 255, and be two ratings slower. Anything under that only adds to this inefficiency.

Plus, the SDR needs to be as fast as possible. Every KMH counts.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 31 March 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[The Verge]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 31 March 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

The thing is, the XL255 is the most effective engine that doesn't need additional DHS. By using a smaller engine, you are still using the same tonnage for the same HE, only without the benefit of the speed. I reccomend never even touching another engine in the 5D, because other engines are a waste.

You see, the 250 is the first engine to have the full 10DHS, and weighs exactly as much as the 255. Anything below this requires a 1T external DHS, making the 245 weight almost as much as the 255, and be two ratings slower. Anything under that only adds to this inefficiency.

Plus, the SDR needs to be as fast as possible. Every KMH counts.

Well, that one way to look at it. Here is my build for the spider 5d

and here is the result.

Edited by V3rg3r3, 31 March 2013 - 10:27 PM.

[Solomon Ward]

^
I rather sacrifice armor in the useless right arm and get the extra speed of an XL 255.
The DHS is also safer in the engine than in your right arm.

But to each his own.
The difference is marginal.

Edited by Solomon Ward, 01 April 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

V3rg3r3, on 31 March 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Well, that one way to look at it. Here is my build for the spider 5d

and here is the result.

I perform very comparably to your build in damage results (not the most important part of a spider anyway) and kills, but have a bit more speed and still dont overheat. Two ratings worth of speed and the same number of DHS, all for only .5 tons more of armor on an arm that serves no purpose, and I usually don't even lose my LA most games despite only having 2 points of armor.

You should really consider taking a 255, as it costs you nothing of value. Literally, the only difference between our builds is two engine ratings and half a ton of LA armor.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 01 April 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[The Verge]

the main reason I have the full armor value is that I can use that arm to block more damage. Since I already have the xl245 engine for my ravens, why not use it in the spiders? I would like more speed, believe me, but until I have the C-Bills, I can't do anything about a better engine

[Cyber Knight]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a620c5c0ddae580

This is what I'm using.










This is what I was able to get, while using it.

Thought I'd share my personal loadout, nice guide though.

Edited by Cyber Knight, 01 April 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Wrenchfarm]

I really like my SPD-5D. While the other variants are junk, the 5D can actually be pretty effective, especially in Desert.

I like to run mine with an ERLLAS, a pair of SLAS, and 7 of 8 jets. Build.

IMO, you should always run a ERLLAS in a Spider's chest. You won't find anything better. MPLAS force you to go knife fighting, a pair of MLAS (if able) gives you 1 more point of damage with 1/3rd the range. LPLAS is a gimmick that doesn't pan out. An ERLLAS lets you fight and harass at any range and you will never overheat using it with a the 10 internal DHS.

I like a pair of SLAS in the arm for extra close range damage. You could just shove in one MLAS and get more range, but I like the slightly higher damage/lower heat of the 2 SLAS. Besides, red lasers are cool. I suppose you could really shave armour and maybe lose a jet and put in 2 MLAS, but I'm not comfortable with that. I want as many jets and as much armour as possible, the Spider relies on flexibility and doesn't have much beef to spare!

[Blue Splint]

I run the same build as Cyber Knight, with very good results so far. Only difference is .5 tons less armor in the useless arm to equip an extra JJ. The extra dps of med pulse lasers really adds up, and since you're zipping around already you can easily get close enough for the range difference (compared to regular medium lasers) to be irrelevant. Also, since the duration of pulse lasers is shorter, that means you can turn away quicker to spread that damage.

And props to the OP, that is a good way to think of the spider: psychological warfare. Are you going to dart in and out? Turn left, right, use JJ? Quick JJ turn? Run away entirely? No one knows and that increases your survivability so much. My KD with the SDR-5D is better than in any other of my mechs because often, you just won't die.

Edited by Blue Splint, 01 April 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[Training Instructor]

Spider is all about distracting, harassing, and capping.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

I'm sorry but I disagree with your recommendation not to use an erppc. It is excellent in the right hands. It has great range, allows u to keep distance and safety from streaks, disable ecm, etc. Goodluck capping against a 2D or 3L. That's a big risk and leaves yr team vulnerable.

[Jungle Rhino]

I'm not an expert with a Spider, but I'm learning every time I take it out. I have gone a bit of a different path with my loadout though opting for a bit more cowbell with a LL and 2x ML SDR-5D. One of the key things is to unlock those Elite skills, once you have speed tweak and the Basic skills doubled you are MUCH more dangerous.

Video of it in action - I need to work on my jump jetting more but I think it really takes time to get used to it, I haven't driven light mechs a lot.

Edited by Jungle Rhino, 02 April 2013 - 01:52 AM.

[Murku]

Nice guide.

Spider without JJ DOES work very well.

255XL/DHS, endo, ferro, ECM and 2x Large Laser in right arm.

Find enemy within 30 secs of match beginning, play peek-a-boo skirmishing for full match, relocating evry few min to maintain an ideal range of about 450m. Combination of small size, ECM targeted lag and super nippy speed means you'll never get hit by anything but laser graze.

Av Damage 300 to 400, have topped 600 tho. .

Edited by Murku, 02 April 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Training Instructor, on 02 April 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Spider is all about distracting, harassing, and capping.

Most of the builds I have seen attempt to focus on being able to deal damage they feel is realistic of other lights in MWO. This often comes at the cost to max engine speed or JJ quantity. I can appreciate you being able to make some dents and get kills with it, no easy task, but the true role of the Spider 5D is scouting and harassment.

When you strip jets or lower your engine size (The 245 requires the same sinks as the 255, but the 255 already has them built in and gets two engine rating for a mere .5 tons.) you reduce your survivability and mobility. You can help your team deal more damage to the other team than you can make up for with an ERLL by being incredibly fast and annoying, redirecting fire away from your team and eating into enemy rear armor. You and your team will live longer and therefore deal more damage. That is not to say my build (3ML 12DHS 7JJ GECM xl255) is not deadly. My scores are very comparable to what I see here, but with the added benefit of a barebones weapon system (With 15fp regardless) and much higher mobility.

Brown Hornet, on 02 April 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I disagree with your recommendation not to use an erppc. It is excellent in the right hands. It has great range, allows u to keep distance and safety from streaks, disable ecm, etc. Goodluck capping against a 2D or 3L. That's a big risk and leaves yr team vulnerable.

Please don't misunderstand me. I love the ERPPC build for the 5D, or I would not have posted it in my guide. The problem right now is that direct fire projectiles don't function well at high speeds or against high speeds, often simply not dealing damage. The reason I recommend avoiding it is due to coding problems, not for any inherent problem with the build (Other than only having 4/8jj)

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 02 April 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Murku]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 02 April 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Most of the builds I have seen attempt to focus on being able to deal damage they feel is realistic of other lights in MWO. This often comes at the cost to max engine speed or JJ quantity. I can appreciate you being able to make some dents and get kills with it, no easy task, but the true role of the Spider 5D is scouting and harassment.

You can help your team deal more damage to the other team than you can make up for with an ERLL by being incredibly fast and annoying, redirecting fire away from your team and eating into enemy rear armor. You and your team will live longer and therefore deal more damage. That is not to say my build (3ML 12DHS 7JJ GECM xl255) is not deadly. My scores are very comparable to what I see here, but with the added benefit of a barebones weapon system (With 15fp regardless) and much higher mobility.

In the politest of terms, no.

Spiders CAN deal significant damage AND be a distraction. It shocked me when I discovered this too, but thinking this is playing a Spider 'wrong' is incredibly short-sighted. You harass all game long (there is no better harassment than dealing damage), provide reliable ECM coverage for any nearby units and can relocate quickly if needed.

And nipping in and out of cover to deliver 18dmg (2 LL while still mounting the 255XL) blasts over 400m range on large slow targets is very easy indeed.

Edited by Murku, 02 April 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Jungle Rhino]

I like it when you see a Jenner standing on top of a hill about 500m away.
Jenner sees you.
Neither of you move as Jenner only has 4ML which will do nothing damage at this distance.
Jenner eats LL in the face.
Jenner moves.

[Wrenchfarm]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 02 April 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Most of the builds I have seen attempt to focus on being able to deal damage they feel is realistic of other lights in MWO. This often comes at the cost to max engine speed or JJ quantity. I can appreciate you being able to make some dents and get kills with it, no easy task, but the true role of the Spider 5D is scouting and harassment.

When you strip jets or lower your engine size (The 245 requires the same sinks as the 255, but the 255 already has them built in and gets two engine rating for a mere .5 tons.) you reduce your survivability and mobility. You can help your team deal more damage to the other team than you can make up for with an ERLL by being incredibly fast and annoying, redirecting fire away from your team and eating into enemy rear armor. You and your team will live longer and therefore deal more damage. That is not to say my build (3ML 12DHS 7JJ GECM xl255) is not deadly. My scores are very comparable to what I see here, but with the added benefit of a barebones weapon system (With 15fp regardless) and much higher mobility.



Please don't misunderstand me. I love the ERPPC build for the 5D, or I would not have posted it in my guide. The problem right now is that direct fire projectiles don't function well at high speeds or against high speeds, often simply not dealing damage. The reason I recommend avoiding it is due to coding problems, not for any inherent problem with the build (Other than only having 4/8jj)

Why don't I keep a max engine, crazy jump jets, AND an ERLAS with a pair of small lasers for detail work?

Behold.

7 of 8 jets is fine, I can still boot it over the tallest obstacles and keep super slippery to the enemy. Running an ERLLAS keeps you in the fight and gives you options at all times, nothing more harassing then being hit by a beam 900m back towards your own base.

I appreciate the idea of a "soft control" build focused on distraction and team play. But if all you're running is a single MLAS and a TAG, you aren't doing your team any favours no matter how many targets you paint. For better or worse, MWO is a game about doing damage. I'm not saying you have to do 500+ every match to be useful, but you have to do some or you're just hindering the team.

Edited by Wrenchfarm, 03 April 2013 - 05:50 AM.

[Jive Korsan]

Cyber Knight, on 01 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a620c5c0ddae580

This is what I'm using.

This is also my perfered build, works wonders for me.

Edited by Jive Korsan, 03 April 2013 - 04:39 PM.