67 replies to this topic

[Tadakuma]

Actually if I remember the fiction correctly (Especially the Warrior and Blood of Kerensky trilogies) aerospace fighters were very effective against mechs.

There are quite a few points in the Blood of Kerensky series were Aerospace fighters make quite a mess of mech forces. I suspect that the main reason for their in effectiveness is their comparative rareness and the fact that they generally have to full other roles aswell.

A fully equipped battlemech regiment with full aerospace support has a 108 mechs and only 18 fighters, those fighters have to provide escorts for the dropships, intercept enemy fighters, do aerial recon in addition to any ground attack missions.

When you consider that of those 18 ASFs not all of them will be suited to ground attack then close ground support is going to be a luxury.

[Paladin1]

LordDeathStrike, on 02 June 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

ive always been a fan of laser ams auto maticaly shooting down inc air craft. swat them skeeters!

the main drawback of trying to use aircraft in battle tech, is that radar and long range weapon ranges arent very long range. by the time you mount ppcs or large lasers on a jet, theres no weight left for things like armor. ever see what happens to an aluminum aircraft when its hit with a salvo of missiles, or a gauss bullet, or ac2 fire, or machine gun fire, or laser fire? they dont sport case either when they have ammo, and they have no armor!

I can always tell a MW4 kiddie by the way they reference various weapon systems and equipment outside of a very narrow band of knowledge.

LDStrike, Laser AMS doesn't work like that and it can't "swat" an aerospace fighter. At all. You want long range weapons and flak ammo for any autocannons if you can get your hands on it and even then you better have your life insurance paid up if you're up against an opponent who knows how to handle a Fighter.

Also, if you think ASF don't mount armor, I'd like to introduce you to a few of my Eisensturms and Daggers to see if I can change your mind. Even if I leave the tech level at 3025, I can still make you **** your pants with a strafing run by a couple of Stukas and those things are practically slabs of armor with weapons and an engine strapped on it.

[Lord DarkClaw]

In Battletech you had Air cover and long range anti air cover in the form of mobile SAM launchers and emplacements and fighters also in the older mech warrior games I downed air with my mech OK was a little difficult but do-able

[Aegis Kleais]

A common misconception with ground forces is that 1 unit type can handle all situations.

Just as you don't send in tanks by themselves into urban areas, you instead couple them with infantry so they can support one another.

The same holds true for Mechs. Airborne forces might cause them some grief (though their higher mobility might make them less harassed by that), you would instead choose to send in your Mech lances with ground units (and if expecting airborne threats, ensure that the ground units were designed for anti-air).

[Paladin1]

GreyGriffin, on 02 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

I actually came to Battletech through Aerotech, by way of B5 wars, back in the day.

Air and space combat are very important to the BTU, but it is less central to the narrative, because the story of air superiority is rarely an exciting one that can be turned by character drama.

As mentioned previously, the Aerospace fighter was a victim of the circumstances of the Succession Wars, and conventional fighters lacked the punch of their fusion powered counterparts. But the fact of the matter is that air-to-ground against Battlemechs is not terribly effective.

Battlemechs have literally metric tons of armor, and they are notoriously difficult to put down. A mech with a damaged leg can limp on, a blown off arm just robs it of part of its armaments, and it would take several dedicated passes to ablate enough of a large 'mech's armor to make a difference, while a small 'mech is just as hard to hit as a small, nimble vehicle is for a modern jet fighter. (Moreso, even, since most ASF's have the aerodynamic qualities of a brick with an SRB attached to it.) Due to their redundant systems, sophisticated armor, and endoskeletal motive systems, the idea that you can just slap it with a bomb and be done with it exits the entire military paradigm. Most medium or larger mechs can survive a direct hit from a small cruise missile (Arrow IV) with just superficial damage. There's a reason they're the kings of the battlefield.

Meanwhile, you're exposing your relatively frail, expensive assets that are important for naval operations to antiaircraft fire from pissed off mechwarriors.

The primary use of Aerospace fighters is interception. They're great at knocking out incoming dropships, and screening the same dropships from interdiction. Once the ground battle starts, they'll certainly be available for a few passes if it's desperately needed, but it's usually left to the 'mechs to take care of each other.

I absolutely have to disagree with you here for two very important reasons. You seem to be operating under the ideas that ASF cannot carry a bomb load and that they are intended to take out a majority of the `Mechs on a battlefield, neither of which are true.

First, depending on which rule set you're using (some people still use the original aerotech rules, others use BattleSpace, but most use the most up to date rules), an ASF carrying a full load of bombs can seriously ruin a target's day. Granted, you're probably not going to hurt more than one or two `Mechs with that bomb load, but that's the point. ASF give you the ability to knock out an opponent's high value target(s) for a very low investment of value on your own part. Here's a perfect example. If I knock out an opponent's Mad Cat with the bomb load from my Sparrowhawk, even if I lose the Sparrowhawk in the exchange, I still come out ahead by killing a higher value target with a low value unit. Granted, a Sparrowhawk can't carry but six bombs but if I put all six into the same target, I'm almost guaranteed a kill.

Secondly, you don't have to kill every last `Mech standing to be effective with an ASF, you just have to kill enough of his high value targets with them to justify having them on the field. If you can kill a unit that has as much as twice the point value in BV as the ASF that you brought to the fight, you just justified that fighter being there.

[Toothman]

JazzySteel, on 02 June 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

THERE it is. He is absolutely right. Me and my friends have actually had some fun conversations about whether or not an invasion force from Battletech could actually take over modern day earth.

There is enough lostech like long range sensors and heavy munitions that we would actually have a fighting chance (assuming all the different nations worked against a single invading foe)

We'd mop the floor with any invading battle mechs. A few shoulder launched stinger missiles to remove the heat sinks from the attacking mechs and then punch holes right through them with M1A2s, and copperhead artillery shells. Our cluster munitions can easily leg any mech. Our cruise missiles can be fired from WAY out of detection range. FAE would drop mechs a lance or even a company at a time. It would be a lopsided fight in our favor.

[Aggammenonn]

http://www.sarna.net...rospace_Fighter

While the lore is slanted to mechs heavily, there is one of the lessons of the 4th SW. The AFFS kicked the crap out of the Cappies by using RCTs. Heavy tanks used correctly can be brutal, but they aren't as nimble as most mechs. As for dropships, attacking a dropship was never really my idea of fun. Most of them mount REALLY heavy weapons I realize this example is from MW4 mercs but on the mission where you go clan dropship hunting... let it power up, see how long your lance lives...... lots, and lots of gauss fire there.

[WogolfatTheFool]

Mechs are the all around, jack of all trades. In the case of air attacks, its has LRM launchers that lock on to the aircraft. Mechs are walking ammunition's. They are equipped for whatever comes ahead. Thus why when facing air enemies, they can take them out easily. You could argue that the aircraft would be faster,but speed doesn't mean anything. They are walking anti air, walking anti infantry, and walking anti tank machines.

[Orzorn]

CaveMan, on 02 June 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Mainly because bombs are horrendously, comically nerfed in BattleTech.

Noooooooot quite.

Here's why:
High Explosive Bombs do indeed do 10 points of damage. They also weigh 1 ton and take up one bomb slot.

Aircraft are given External Store Hardpoints, one for every 5 tons the aircraft weighs. That means that a heavy aerospace can gain as many as 20 free ordnance hardpoints...for free. Yes, there is a limiting rule thanks to reduction of safe thrust, but you can do some very, very mean things with even 6 or so HE bombs. Remember, that is 60 guaranteed damage, from ONE aerospace fighter. Get a swarm of these and its just downright malicious. So malicious in fact, that I've heard from many TT players that its considered a move only to be done in very poor sportsmanship, or when you just absolutely hate the other player and want them to suffer.

[Paladin1]

Toothman, on 02 June 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

We'd mop the floor with any invading battle mechs. A few shoulder launched stinger missiles to remove the heat sinks from the attacking mechs and then punch holes right through them with M1A2s, and copperhead artillery shells. Our cluster munitions can easily leg any mech. Our cruise missiles can be fired from WAY out of detection range. FAE would drop mechs a lance or even a company at a time. It would be a lopsided fight in our favor.

I'm glad that you're sure of this, but it disagrees with the canon. The cruise missiles would be a problem, as would some of the larger bombs such as the FAE and what not, but by and large most modern weapons wouldn't do much more than dent a `Mech's armor. Remember, this isn't modern Choblam armor, this stuff is the product of over 1,000 years of advanced R&D in a continuing arms race.

[Rot Wulf]

Tadakuma, on 02 June 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Actually if I remember the fiction correctly (Especially the Warrior and Blood of Kerensky trilogies) aerospace fighters were very effective against mechs.

There are quite a few points in the Blood of Kerensky series were Aerospace fighters make quite a mess of mech forces. I suspect that the main reason for their in effectiveness is their comparative rareness and the fact that they generally have to full other roles aswell.

A fully equipped battlemech regiment with full aerospace support has a 108 mechs and only 18 fighters, those fighters have to provide escorts for the dropships, intercept enemy fighters, do aerial recon in addition to any ground attack missions.

When you consider that of those 18 ASFs not all of them will be suited to ground attack then close ground support is going to be a luxury.

^^^ yup this and it is in the command tree, along with a VTOL UAV. There will be some nods to these things, along with Dropships with the naval bombardment. I don't think PGI is rubbing out these units from the battlefield, just doing what is needed to launch a game. Then once they have income from it flesh it out beyond what it is at launch.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Adridos, on 02 June 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

No, I just roamed a bit on the Google to find a nice pic to represent the Rifleman.

Whenever I post a miniature, you can be sure it's not mine since there is no Battletech shop closer to me than in the UK. Considering that, it would be really hard to get a hold of some and then you must count the fact that I'd have to find a modelling shop, etc...

Iron Wind Metals is the place to go: it's in your computer

[Paladin1]

Orzorn, on 02 June 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Noooooooot quite.

Here's why:
High Explosive Bombs do indeed do 10 points of damage. They also weigh 1 ton and take up one bomb slot.

Aircraft are given External Store Hardpoints, one for every 5 tons the aircraft weighs. That means that a heavy aerospace can gain as many as 20 free ordnance hardpoints...for free. Yes, there is a limiting rule thanks to reduction of safe thrust, but you can do some very, very mean things with even 6 or so HE bombs. Remember, that is 60 guaranteed damage, from ONE aerospace fighter. Get a swarm of these and its just downright malicious. So malicious in fact, that I've heard from many TT players that its considered a move only to be done in very poor sportsmanship, or when you just absolutely hate the other player and want them to suffer.

This needs to be repeated over and over and over. An Aerospace Fighter with a full bomb load inbound on your position is a real reason to ignore whatever is in front of you and start putting lead in the sky ASAP. I've seen assault `Mechs literally disintegrate under a single bomb run by an ASF and if you're dumb enough to cluster up, you're just begging to be carpet bombed for your trouble.

[Paladin1]

Major Bill Curtis, on 02 June 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

Iron Wind Metals is the place to go: it's in your computer

I've got to second this, order your minis online from Iron Wind Metals. That's where I got a sizable portion of my armored brigade from and they usually are really great to work with if there's a problem with your order. For example, I had several Manticores which had pieces that were deformed during the molding process and they replaced the deformed parts free of charge when I told them about it. I can't recommend them enough.

[Kenyon Burguess]

lore wise, a large portion of the house and periphery units have armor and aerospace assets attached to them. its usually the merc companies that tend to be without them. aerospace typically does its job long before the mechs even hit the ground. cleaning up the pirate jump point, then knocking down an enemies space defenses and satalites and finally ending with communications sites and command centers on the surface.
then mechs and armor roll to objectives and clean up. finally the battle concludes with boots in buildings.

[Orzorn]

Paladin1, on 02 June 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

This needs to be repeated over and over and over. An Aerospace Fighter with a full bomb load inbound on your position is a real reason to ignore whatever is in front of you and start putting lead in the sky ASAP. I've seen assault `Mechs literally disintegrate under a single bomb run by an ASF and if you're dumb enough to cluster up, you're just begging to be carpet bombed for your trouble.

Indeed. It gets even worse when you realize just how insane BV makes the situation:
Even an atmospheric bomber like the Boeing Jump Bomber can carry 4 HE bombs. That's 40 damage, all for (I'm going for the higher BV) 103 BV. Even in a 5000 BV game or so (about 4 mechs), that is 48 Boeing Jump Bombers. 48 * 40 = 1920 damage. Those mechs aren't just downed, they aren't just scrap, their scrap was slagged, the slag was melted, the melted slag was burnt to ash, the ash was thrown into the sun, and the sun went supernova and was devoured by a black hole.

Edited by Orzorn, 02 June 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[infinite xaer0]

Paladin1, on 02 June 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm glad that you're sure of this, but it disagrees with the canon. The cruise missiles would be a problem, as would some of the larger bombs such as the FAE and what not, but by and large most modern weapons wouldn't do much more than dent a `Mech's armor. Remember, this isn't modern Choblam armor, this stuff is the product of over 1,000 years of advanced R&D in a continuing arms race.

well, battlemech armor is by all means lighter than modern composite armor, but I don't think there's any indication that it's that much more resilient. and besides, composite armor is only really effective at stopping shaped charge warheads, it doesn't do jack **** against APFSDS KE penetrator rounds. Modern MBT not only sport a shell of composite armor, but also plates of "heavy armor", which are made of dense composite materials specifically designed to stop KE penetrators. last time I checked, I don't think mechs have any "heavy armor", meaning they would be extremely vulnerable to KE rounds.

[Bleakheart]

Air power will trump ground units every time. If they don't, you didn't use them correctly.

Just ask the US Air Force.

......

It's inexperience with RL combined arms action that makes me laugh at discussions like this. Blind the ground units and cut comms. Arty and bomb from altitude (in game term, target the HEX, not the unit). Close in bomb any stragglers. Send in the GroPos to herd those that surrender.

MWO is a ground based slugfest. Just be glad you won't have to watch the skies for anything.

[Davoke]

I don't think, however heavy the armor, that a mech cockpit(even the Atlas) could survive much more than handful of hits from a 20mm cannon, much less the Abrams 120mm gun. I think the 25mm chaingun on a Bradley would be devastatingly lethal to a mech, it could easily rip the cockpit to shreds. And a squadron of F15E's with FAE's and GPB's(guided penetration bombs) could really ruin a lance's day.

Or, alternatively, we could throw the literally tens of thousands of russian tanks at them while we build a massive defense network to completely crush them.

[Madcat75]

Paladin1, on 02 June 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm glad that you're sure of this, but it disagrees with the canon. The cruise missiles would be a problem, as would some of the larger bombs such as the FAE and what not, but by and large most modern weapons wouldn't do much more than dent a `Mech's armor. Remember, this isn't modern Choblam armor, this stuff is the product of over 1,000 years of advanced R&D in a continuing arms race.

With regards to if modern day Earth could withstand a Mech assault, people seem to forget we have an abundance of Nuclear weapons, I don't mean the city busting ICBM's I am talking about the Tactical Nukes, they would be powerfull enough to wipe out a lance or 2 but not cause a Nuclear winter, also if we used a Neutron Bomb that could kill the Mech pilots and leave the Mechs in operational condition.