55 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

blinkin, on 01 April 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

laser hit rates are currently a very blatant lie. currently i have 93.31% hit rate with medium lasers. i have 935 hits. my total damage is 2,290. with the use of my handy calculator that comes out to 2.45 damage per shot. medium lasers are supposed to hit for 5. regardless of what my accuracy stats say at least 50% of my damage is not connecting.

so in reality my hit rate for my medium laser is in the 40% range, but your streak stats are very likely true to reality. if you divide your streak damage by your streak hits it will likely come out very close to the listed damage of streaks.


what i have been trying to say is that with tactics and skill a good light pilot can protect themselves from the majority of laser fire, but anything with streaks just gets free hits on any light mech within range.

Not really.

Try it.

They do hit a lot, but they hit all sort of other crap in the meantime.

[blinkin]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Not really.

Try it.

They do hit a lot, but they hit all sort of other crap in the meantime.

i did try it. i even showed you the math. lasers are for the most part as accurate as all of my other weapons. they fall around the same 40% hit rate as my ERPPC or my SRM6. lasers just don't show up properly in the stats.

i don't quite understand why we are arguing. we both agree streaks need a change, and that is what this thread is about.

here is my suggestion:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Yokaiko]

blinkin, on 01 April 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

i did try it. i even showed you the math. lasers are for the most part as accurate as all of my other weapons. they fall around the same 40% hit rate as my ERPPC or my SRM6. lasers just don't show up properly in the stats.

i don't quite understand why we are arguing. we both agree streaks need a change, and that is what this thread is about.

here is my suggestion:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Its been floated.

Supposedly the hit locations were randomized months ago, its just one more thing that is broken.

[HammerSwarm]

Aim64C, on 30 March 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I think the main flaw with the 3L is that both ECM and streaks can be equipped on the chassis ... which, given the mechanics of streaks, is an absolutely evil combination. The solution is simple - make ECM not work against streaks.

Or just make them not fire while in jamming mode. How is it that an ECM jamming all income radar can still get a radar lock? It don't make no sense to me. (intentionally bad grammar).

[focuspark]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

heThey are mounted on ships killer. Not exactly screaming, the fastest warships go around 50knots.

Sorry, I got this confused with another weapons system. A quick check on Google proves you right. However, I'm not seeing any evidence of these missiles making right or more acute angle turns. Can you provide a link please?

[Yokaiko]

focuspark, on 01 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Sorry, I got this confused with another weapons system. A quick check on Google proves you right. However, I'm not seeing any evidence of these missiles making right or more acute angle turns. Can you provide a link please?

What do you think it takes to get in front of a maneuvering anti-ship cruise missile going mach 3 or 4?

On that note I can tell you now, pretty much all S/A and A/A missile can do some pretty amazing things. Why do you think the navy only uses VLS now?

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 April 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[focuspark]

OK, let's go with my stats (probably shouldn't be giving this away but here we go anyways)



When using them SSRM2 are 96.5% accurate delivering 1,863 points of damage from 625 shots. That's roughly 2.5 damage per hit. Now I'm not sure if the numbers are per missile or per salvo of two missiles but that's doesn't matter. The point is SSRM2 are 96.5% accurate.

Medium Lasers aren't even that accurate with their messed up measurement of accuracy. If we assumed all damage were applied each time a ML connected my 3,679 hits should have added up to 18,395 damage but they didn't. Instead I was only able to land about half of that (9,923). If we do the math ML, used by me, are only 49.34% accurate; or nearly half as accurate as SSRM2 at delivering damage.

If you set up your table correctly, you'll see SSRM are a massive outlier in damage probability.

[focuspark]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

What do you think it takes to get in front of a maneuvering anti-ship cruise missile going mach 3 or 4?

I think you're asking me how hard is it aim a missile going mach 3. I'd say pretty damn difficult and the turning radius would be rather large. Luckily SSRM only travel at about 700 KPH, but they still make unrealistic right turns for their slower speeds.

[Yokaiko]

focuspark, on 01 April 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

I think you're asking me how hard is it aim a missile going mach 3. I'd say pretty damn difficult and the turning radius would be rather large. Luckily SSRM only travel at about 700 KPH, but they still make unrealistic right turns for their slower speeds.

Wrong, however, this is not the place to get into missile and anti-missile capabilities.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 April 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[SVK Puskin]

HammerSwarm, on 01 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Or just make them not fire while in jamming mode. How is it that an ECM jamming all income radar can still get a radar lock? It don't make no sense to me. (intentionally bad grammar).

No, if you getting low signal becuase of ECM enemy mech your streaks are unable to lock, which means (enemy)ECM is blocking your streaks to fire on target.

[MasterErrant]

Aim64C, on 30 March 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

... I've yet to really understand what "skill" is.

I mean... how is a Raven with streaks less skilled than a stalker boating large lasers? Lot of skill involved in that, right there.

Though, watching people play after getting my own dumb *** killed, the basic concept of target leading does actually qualify as skill, I suppose. The idea that their weapon has a travel time and that they might need to factor that in to where their crosshairs are when they pull the trigger is something akin to voodoo.

It's times like these that I sit in utter amazement that human beings ever managed to discover farming strategies, metallurgy, electricity, etc.



Sometimes, part of skill is knowing when you do and do not have the advantage in loadout. You can't expect to have a game with as diverse an arsenal as MechWarrior that allows you to freely engage and win against any opponent based on the credibility of your ego. Some designs will simply have an advantage against yours that... depending upon a host of factors, may be nearly impossible to mitigate.

If you happen to be the last man standing against such a design... well... such is war.

I think the main flaw with the 3L is that both ECM and streaks can be equipped on the chassis ... which, given the mechanics of streaks, is an absolutely evil combination. The solution is simple - make ECM not work against streaks.

Giving streaks a bit of a cluster roll, as well, would go a long way to rounding them out. Mechs with streaks would still be very effective anti-light platforms, but would not be Core-O-Matics.

Which is odd - because I've seen streaks -not- hitting the CT of larger mechs, but seemingly zeroing in on the CT of light mechs. I'm fairly certain this is an artifact of the silly guidance system they use for missiles - but I could be wrong.

Strictly speaking BT missiles as described are only barely guided by todays standards. (Streaks excepted) more like volley rockets with some minimal guidence mostly in the terminal attack portion of their flight. that's why they are so cheaI think streaks need to follow the same rules as other SRMs except they don't miss. unless blocked it intercepted.

The level of technology here isn't much higher than 2013 to be honest...in some ways it's lower.

[Cubivorre]

focuspark, on 29 March 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

... yeah, no missile made by man flies like SSRM do. I see them fire out of the front torso of a COM-2D, make an abrupt "J" turn and come for me behind him. Makes no sense.

Edited by Cubivorre, 02 April 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[focuspark]

Cubivorre, on 02 April 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Except in the 31st century they're technologically behind the 21st century... so your lame Internet-meme generator fails.

[Cubivorre]

focuspark, on 02 April 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Except in the 31st century they're technologically behind the 21st century... so your lame Internet-meme generator fails.

[Byk]

Streaks are downright the most broken weapon in game currently, and need to change. For the good of all light pilots without ECM (and even for those who get theirs jammed) they need to change. They completely neutralize any light mech and require absolutely no skill/difficulty to use. You can't just take the light mech's only advantage of speed and dodging away from it with a weapon that hits 100% of the time.

[Aim64C]

HammerSwarm, on 01 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Or just make them not fire while in jamming mode. How is it that an ECM jamming all income radar can still get a radar lock? It don't make no sense to me. (intentionally bad grammar).

Radar jamming works by identifying a radar antenna and projecting specific radio frequencies at it. More advanced jamming systems detect the range of requencies a radar will use to try and continue operating through the attempt to jam it, and project those (since, usually, a radar will radiate a specific frequency in a specific direction and wait for returns in that frequency and its side-bands) - it may not completely 'jam' the radar, but generate a lot of additional fuzz and returns that make attempts to search very difficult.

Jamming a radar in tracking mode can, interestingly enough, be a little easier but more complicated. A tracking radar has already identified you and started tracking - but you can do some very funky things to what the radar receives as an echo, or generate a false echo (particularly if you know what frequency it will use, next). This can destroy accurate guidance of missiles using a datalink (though missiles that work purely off of target illumination will likely guide properly - but you can track and jam that missile's receiving unit to guide it right back to the launch vehicle, if you want... the brits did a similar thing back in World War II - when the Germans were using radio stations to transmit signals to guide bombers to their targets at night.... after the Brits figured out how they were doing it - they modified the signals to have german bomber crews, unfamiliar with night-time navigation, bomb their own cities and land back in Britain... quite hilarious, actually).

Anyway - using radar guidance for streaks makes no sense. IR guidance would be far more economical at those ranges, as would the systems to guide them. A perfect example of how a Streak SRM would behave is in the Aim-9 Sidewinder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-9

The construction is ingenius in how affordable and effective it is.

Actually - the Aim-9 would be like Arrow IV Artillery in terms of range and capability - but we'll just classify the Aim 9 as Lostech.

Otherwise - it is completely possible for one to operate through your own jamming (as the jamming really wouldn't affect what you're seeing in the slightest... heck - some systems could take the echoes off of your jammer's emissions and process them as if it were a weaker radar antenna).