124 replies to this topic

[zraven7]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 April 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

zraven7
0.8 damage per second is a bit to low I think.

Agreed, but it would be an improvement, and possibly make them useful. Even a nice round "1 damage" would be better than we have now.

[xhrit]

Lolpingu, on 31 March 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Tiny? how are the missiles tiny? BattleMechs are just huge. Although I do think that for a device with an explosive payload, a guidance system and omnidirectional thrusters should be a bit larger than what it is in the BattleTech universe.
Though I agree about PPCs and Gauss Rifles. PPCs aren't quite explained, and the hundreds of ultracapacitors in the Gauss Rifles would generate a lot of heat. I guess that it's a matter of balance.

Actually according to battletech rules a LRM 20 has 6 volleys in 1 ton of ammo, with 120 missiles per ton, and 2000 pounds in a ton.

This means each missile weighs 16 pounds.

That is only 3 pounds more then an unguided WWII Panzerfaust 30, which had an effective range of 60 meters.

Edited by xhrit, 01 April 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Skyfaller]

If we consider how the MG's are in the game (and TT) to the why they are this way...


there is only one answer:

Coil Gun.

The MGs are not chemically propelled rounds but a crude version of a railgun (with much less power).

A fast fire coil gun would definitely be massive in size and weight (hence why MGs weigh half a freaking ton in MWO), have such a poor rate of fire (even our WW1 era machine guns have higher ROF) and such a miserable short range.

It explains why they are so-so vs mechs...the rounds fired are huge (0.80 caliber equivalent...thats anti-tank rifle caliber but smaller than 20mm cannon) but so good vs infantry..... for such a low velocity round (coil gun) it would get bonus vs foot soldiers...its like a napoleonic era round ball cannon bouncing off the ground whacking people as it rolls to a stop.

There. MG's explained.

Pls buff their rate of fire devs.

[Smk]

FupDup, on 31 March 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Most .50 cal machine guns don't weigh five hundred kilograms.

It could weigh 5 thousand kilograms as long as it's firing a .50 cal round it's not going to penetrate the armor of a mech. I would guess that quite a bit of that weight is due to the autoloading mechanisim.

[Glythe]

Honestly MG would be fine if they threw out the crit seeking bit and upped the damage to TT values. Or maybe up the damage and leave in the crit seeking part (so that people MIGHT actually have a reason to use them). They also need to have an option for 1/2 tons of ammunition

Lolpingu, on 31 March 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

I had a re-read of the entire BattleTech history a couple of weeks ago. The ONLY error in reality that I could find is the realization of FTL travel (And who knows? maybe one day, Einstein will be proven wrong).

Rules of physics are treated as constants although there are possible circumstances where the rules might be bent or broken. Let's assume you could travel at the speed of light; if you travel one slightly bit faster then you're going faster than light. It's really not much to talk about....in the same way that going 61 kph is not much different than going 60 kph (but you are going faster).

Another way of thinking about FTL travel is measuring the time it would take light to get there and beating that speed by some means. Possible options include a wormhole like method of travel or particle transportation/reconstruction.

A perfect understanding of physics would allow you to deconstruct and reconstruct objects molecule by molecule. Throwing out the energy problem (fascinating read if you missed it.... pick up a copy of the physics of star trek) a transporter is entirely possible but problematic. With the right technology it seems possible that you could eventually reconstruct a simple object like a coffee mug. If you deconstruct that object in one location and reconstruct it somewhere else (faster than light could travel) have you indeed made it travel faster than light?

[Child3k]

@Lolpingu: You know - the thing is: Battletech is no science-fiction. It's just fantasy, genrewise. Even if it often does not feel that way.

[Zerberus]

Lolpingu, on 31 March 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Their projectile size is inappropriate for explosive payloads (the only application for explosive MG rounds is anti-infantry)

WTF?

Knowingly using explosive or frangible rounds against infantry is a WAR CRIME, their use against infantry was banned by the Geneva Convention well over 50 years ago.

HE , HEAP, and HEAPI Rounds are used EXCLUSIVELY for anti-materiel purposes by every military in the world that follows the "rules" laid out in said convention.

If you`re going to harp on "reality" in a fantasy based game, please at least inform yourself of what happens in reality, first.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zerberus, on 01 April 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

WTF?

Knowingly using explosive or frangible rounds against infantry is a WAR CRIME, their use against infantry was banned by the Geneva Convention well over 50 years ago.

HE , HEAP, and HEAPI Rounds are used EXCLUSIVELY for anti-materiel purposes by every military in the world that follows the "rules" laid out in said convention.

If you`re going to harp on "reality" in a fantasy based game, please at least inform yourself of what happens in reality, first.

FYI...
The Geneva Conventions are only applicable on Earth. It is the Ares Conventions you need to quote Sir.

[Merky Merc]

Quit trying to use realism as an argument in BT. Even accepting that BT mechs would be usable, the realism ship sailed when they started creating extremely short ranged ballistic weapons that cause the mech to overheat (rather than the gun), said ballistics are ridiculously heavy compared to modern tank weapons, the mechs themselves are shaped terrible for military vehicles (mmmm hmmm big broad flat sides, take all the force from my weapons and reflect all my radars), BT has magic missile syndrome, and they never really addressed how badly aircraft would shred them apart I don't think. Oh and you can magic your ammo from your feet to your arms, because... magic?

Anyways, stop the realism talk. Do MGs need a buff? Most probably. Does the ballistic property of an M2 HMG have anything to do with that? Nope, a weapon like that is super duper lostech.

[Esplodin]

Smk, on 01 April 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

It could weigh 5 thousand kilograms as long as it's firing a .50 cal round it's not going to penetrate the armor of a mech. I would guess that quite a bit of that weight is due to the autoloading mechanisim.

A 50 cal round could exert 197,854,974.08 Ft/lbs of force, if fired at the speed of light. Such a velocity would quickly burn up the round due to friction with the air. Probably 200m or so before all the slug was vaporized. MWO MG explained.

REAL WORLD IS NOT MECHWARRIOR. Honestly. Belief in 100 ton robots powered by mini-suns that move because of bacteria juice in tubes, but no such thing for ONE SINGULAR WEAPON that most people picture in their heads as a man-portable version. Suspension of Disbelief FAIL.

Zerberus, on 01 April 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Knowingly using explosive or frangible rounds against infantry is a WAR CRIME, their use against infantry was banned by the Geneva Convention well over 50 years ago.

I wasn't shooting at the person, just at his EQUIPMENT. A canteen is equipment.

[Corbon Zackery]

FupDup, on 31 March 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Most .50 cal machine guns don't weigh five hundred kilograms.

Resources are limited in Battletech due to 4 succession wars so most MG are made out of Raw Iron adding 1/2 ton of weight these are not ideal times most industry's use the cheapest metals so they can mass produce the weapon this adds weight to the gun.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Oh, FFS, why there are people that want useless weapons in this game? I just can't comprehend that.
Let's add even more of them!
- Mech Paintball Gun - all the colours, no damage, lots of safe fun!
- Mech Chicken Launcher - remember Hot Shots?
- Rainbow Projection Cannon - 'coz friendship is magic!

[Esplodin]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 01 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

- Rainbow Projection Cannon - 'coz friendship is magic!

Don't give them ideas. The next MG "buff" might be that it crits our sense of self worth.

Edited by Esplodin, 01 April 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 01 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Oh, FFS, why there are people that want useless weapons in this game? I just can't comprehend that.
Let's add even more of them!
- Mech Paintball Gun - all the colours, no damage, lots of safe fun!
- Mech Chicken Launcher - remember Hot Shots?
- Rainbow Projection Cannon - 'coz friendship is magic!

That's not canon!

Paintball is Lostech.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Zerberus, on 01 April 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

WTF?

Knowingly using explosive or frangible rounds against infantry is a WAR CRIME, their use against infantry was banned by the Geneva Convention well over 50 years ago.

HE , HEAP, and HEAPI Rounds are used EXCLUSIVELY for anti-materiel purposes by every military in the world that follows the "rules" laid out in said convention.

If you`re going to harp on "reality" in a fantasy based game, please at least inform yourself of what happens in reality, first.

"Expanding bullets" were outlawed by the Hague Convention in 1899. The Geneva Conventions (note plural) were laid out in 1864, 1906, 1929, and 1949. The first dealt with treatment of the sick and tallying of the dead/wounded. The second dealt with treatment of captured or stranded sailors, and setting up rules for neutral hospital ships. The third dealt with treatment of prisoners of war. The fourth was about treatment of civilians during wartime.

You'll note I didn't mention poison gas or any other weapon/technologies in any of those synopses. This was not an omission on my part; none of the Geneva conventions have anything to do with what weapons may be used on what targets.

All of this may be verified through whatever sources you please (I checked my dates with Wikipedia).

And while I'm at it, there are no cases where it's illegal to use a weapon on a human where it's legal to shoot a canteen that is attached to a human. Also, it is not illegal to use .50 on people. I'm not sure where that myth came from.

Edit: rereading this, it seems a lot more nerdragey than I intended. I'm not trying to smack anybody down, it's just something I see a lot of people repeating, I happen to know a bit about it (and where to find out the rest) and I'm taking a break from programming my job is very boring. Peace and love, squawk squawk, etc.

Edited by Blue Footed Booby, 01 April 2013 - 11:44 AM.

[Lincoln Kotare]

**** machine guns!

[stjobe]

Fixing the Machine Gun in three easy step:
1. Triple the per-projectile damage
2. (Optionally) Roll back the crit buff
3. Okay, so it's only two steps, one of which is optional. Should make it a no-brainer to do then.

The MG has been useless for too long. Fix it, and fix it for real this time. No more special circumstances crit buff malarkey. Make it the light ballistics weapon it's supposed to be.

Edited by stjobe, 01 April 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

From what I can gather, the Machine Guns in TT fire a caliber that ranges from .50 caliber (12x99/107mm) to 20mm

You gather wrong.

In Battletech, Machine Guns weigh a half ton. I dont know any .50cal or 20mm bullet that weighs 500 lbs (20mm vulcan cannon weighs less than half that). Machine Gun ammo also weighs 1 ton per 200 rounds... so 10 lbs for however many rounds are fired in 10 seconds.

Machine Guns in Battletech must be firing some very large bullets to weigh that much.

Edited by Khobai, 01 April 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 01 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

You gather wrong.

In Battletech, Machine Gun ammo weighs 1 ton per 200 rounds. That means each round weighs 10lbs. I dont know any .50cal or 20mm bullet that weighs 10 lbs.

To be technical, BT uses metric tons so that makes each bullet weigh 11.023113 pounds, which is even heavier.

Edited by FupDup, 01 April 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Chavette]

The 1t of bullets won't be piled up like some haystack, theres a feeding/support mechanism in the weight too...