49 replies to this topic

[Aym]

Roadbeer, on 02 April 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

I go with the third choice.

Would I put it on an Atlas, wading into the fray and probably the first mech to be burned down. No
Would I put it on a LRM/PPC Stalker that's providing support. Hellz yeah.

LRM stalker? If you have to have Lurms that's the way to do it.
PPC stalker? 300 standard, you're limited by crit slots not tonnage for the DHS, unless you're talking about the 6ppc stalker but that's a joke build.

[neviu]

Aym, on 02 April 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

LRM stalker? If you have to have Lurms that's the way to do it.
PPC stalker? 300 standard, you're limited by crit slots not tonnage for the DHS, unless you're talking about the 6ppc stalker but that's a joke build.

Good that ime a joke than,

Hope to oneshoot you one time

[Terror Teddy]

One thing to remember that the term "Assault" does not mean a brawler- it's just a weight class. What you DO with it and what ROLE you want the mech to play is up to the pilot.

[DarkDevilDancer]

XL engines in a stalker or an atlas means a fast death, you really dont want your autocannon blowing up next to your engine.

Awsomes have speed so can avoid some damage with a good pilot but in general XL in an assault is a terrible idea.

[Belorion]

The only way I could see it being possibly useful is on a support mech... but ultimately still a bad idea.

[wonator]

Atlas - Hell no
Stalker - Some special fits, but also no
Awesome - Only playable variant is 9M, here yes

[Falchion Sensei]

Royalewithcheese, on 02 April 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

What it feels like when the Stalker you were fighting turned out to be running an XL engine:

LOL so much this. Whenever I shoot out an assault's side torso and it suddenly dies I have to thank them in chat for the yummy XL snack.

[JPsi]

My experience with an lrm stalker. With a standard engine, 95% of the time when losing a side torso. I was dead seconds later anyway having not really done anything significant in those few seconds (besides playing a damage soak). The Stalker doesn't usually lose the side torso from long range nearly as often as a close up brawl. At which point an lrm stalker is just dead meat anyway. Yes, I've had a few cases where I lost a torso and ended out still staying in the fight. It's the rare exception though.

At this point having tried with an XL. I don't find myself dying more often, I find myself dying less. Mostly cause I can avoid brawls that bit better. No its still not fast. It's just not quite as easily caught.

So while it seems counterintuitive, I find my survivability increases in an lrm boat stalker with an XL Vs standard.

Granted, this is probably not true for most other stalker variations.

Edited by JPsi, 02 April 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Dr Killinger]

Awesome? Yes.
Stalker? Maybe.
Atlas? No.

The Awesome needs speed and firepower to stand toe to toe with other assaults.
The Stalker can be very tanky if using a standard, but with it's enormous amount of hard points, can use the extra weight an XL affords, so it depends if your friends can tank it up while you play turret.
The Atlas has so much free weight and such limited crit space, the XL doesn't really work. It can still bring many guns to the fight once it's lost a torso and arm, and can just soak up huge damage in general.

*The aforementioned views are simply my opinion, I'm sure someone has managed to tank an entire team in an XL Atlas and has managed to cap with a standard engine Awesome, more power to them.

[Khobai]

XL engines arnt as useful on assaults as they should be because of pinpoint aiming.

[ItsAPotato]

JPsi, on 02 April 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

My experience with an lrm stalker. With a standard engine, 95% of the time when losing a side torso. I was dead seconds later anyway having not really done anything significant in those few seconds (besides playing a damage soak).\

Exactly. If I'm losing my side torso in a stalker, then I'm probably being focused by multiple enemies and will be dead very soon either way. Spending the next 3 seconds alive but with half firepower (thats half of an already reduced total firepower because of the standard engine) isn't going to do anything.

Consider: You spend the vast majority of your time in the average match with both side torsos intact. This is your primary state. Your secondary state is that of having lost a side torso, which = -50% firepower, center torso size +100%. Your secondary state is, on average, much shorter due to greatly decreased survivability, often only lasting seconds.

Over the course of the average match, if you increase your firepower (and, to an extent, your armor) in your primary state, you will have a much greater impact on the fight than if you increased your firepower in your secondary state.

Of course, this only applies if you can actually USE the extra weight afforded to you by equipping an XL engine. As such, Atlases need not apply here

[OneEyed Jack]

Is khobai Nerdenese for "broken record"?

[Josef Nader]

Never. Assaults have tonnage to spare. There is never any reason to use an XL engine. You're too damn easy to hit to cut down your survivability like that, and you'll never be able to use your tonnage effectively if you get rid of it.

The ONLY exeption to this rule is the super fast Awesome. Even then, it's not a -good- mech, but it's one of the better uses for an Awesome.

[Lusankya]

I never use an XL in any of my assaults because I use them as brawlers. But if I were using them as support mechs then yeah I might use an XL to get some more fire power and heat dissipation.

[Shadowsword8]

Josef Nader, on 02 April 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Never. Assaults have tonnage to spare. There is never any reason to use an XL engine. You're too damn easy to hit to cut down your survivability like that, and you'll never be able to use your tonnage effectively if you get rid of it.

Never is a word you should use more carefully.

Take the Stalker, for example: nearly everyone will tell you it's a terrible idea, that side torsos are too easy to hit. And they're right. But at the same time, they forget that your CT also take a lot of the incoming damage. I have fought hundreds of matches with my Stalkers and I found out that, when you lose a side torso, you lose any meaningfull role in the battle almost every time. Because half your firepower is gone, and because when your ST goes poof, your CT is already in internals. So it's only a matter of a few seconds anyway.

I sometimes get matches where I can kill whatever crippled me and still do something usefull afterwards with what I have left, but those occurences are few and far between.

This doesn't apply to the Atlas, however. Again played hundreds of matches, and occurences when you still have some armor left on CT when you lose a ST are much more frequent.

TL/DR: XL on mid-range assaults are a bad idea on paper, not so bad in reality. They make you die quicker, but will rarely change your contribution the match, so does it really matter?

Edited by Shadowsword8, 02 April 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Tesunie]

For most assault, and most mech classes, I'd have to say no XL. In an assault I see all the wasted armor and structure. Heavies have the same feel. Mediums and lights can get away with it, definitely the lights.

My experience with Stalkers is that my sides can go pop easily, but I'd rather run around with half my weapons than to fall over dead. This applies to my PPC Stalker as well. Don't know how many matches I continued to score kills and damage with only one side still working.

However, there are some mechs/builds that can use the XL, even in the heavier classes. Most heavy and assaults I find don't need the speed, but some might (same with weight). The Awesome is one such example where it's speed is useful, and surprising.

Then you might have some mechs such as the Hunchback were once you loose a side torso you are either useless, or dead anyway.

Lights can get away with, if not always need, an XL to save weight and go faster. Plus, let's be honest, if a light looses a side, it was probably very close to death anyway.


Not to offend, but I always laugh at XL Stalkers. I always aim for the easy to hit sides just to reduce incoming fire/damage fast. When the Stalker dies from 2 or 3 well placed salvos, it always seems too fast and too easy. However, I can understand some people wanting the extra speed and firepower. I just don't feel the trade off is worth it in assaults.


As for 6 PPC stalkers, they shut down too easily. I prefer my non-XL 4 PPC Stalker which can alpha several times or keep a longer chain fire going. Better if I miss my first shot. Thus why 6 PPC stalkers were a joke, but if they hit, it's going to hurt, a lot.

[Barghest Whelp]

Ya know what? Option 3. It's not always about what role the mech is intended for, but more about the intended playstyle and loadout.

The fact is, XL engines is the best lostech weight saving measure available, and unless I want to fit an AC20 or don't have enough slots available I usually go for an XL. The whole "omfgbbqpwnidiedbecuzofxlengine" is wrong imo. The truth of the matter is learn to spread damage. A bigger engine means faster torso twist which makes it easier to spread the damage.

Consider this: LT + RT + CT have way more armour than CT alone. So even if you're not using an XL, you really should be doing the twist. Another interesting fact I have observed is that people almost always aim for the CT for a quick kill, so an XL will make very little difference regardless of size, class or role.

That being said, I'm sure people can come up with reasons to not fit an XL beyond my reasons, and they're totally right, because it suits their playstyle.

[JPsi]

Tesunie, on 02 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Not to offend, but I always laugh at XL Stalkers. I always aim for the easy to hit sides just to reduce incoming fire/damage fast. When the Stalker dies from 2 or 3 well placed salvos, it always seems too fast and too easy. However, I can understand some people wanting the extra speed and firepower. I just don't feel the trade off is worth it in assaults.

I agree it feels like it, I even use the same tactic verse all stalkers. I guess I'm just looking at it the other side of the coin.
How often does that XL stalker get caught out for those nice salvos vs the standard equipped one? Thats a lot harder to tell as its not really known how many players use XL stalkers.

I can only infer from my experience while playing stalkers. I die a lot more often running a standard engine, moving slowly and getting caught than I do from being quick killed while running an XL.
My experience could even run counter to that of most stalker pilots and be the oddity, but it's the only solid indicator I've seen.

Clarification: I'm using the XL to get the extra speed for reposition/keeping to the better spots around the teamfight so people have a hard time closing/flanking. Not: "hey I'm a light and you have trouble aiming at me"

Edited by JPsi, 02 April 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Only assults i've run were atlas', never put an XL in them as I seem to have enough firepower. I seem to get my CT blown out as much as my torso's tho so i would be dead more often. I can't see it being that helpful unless your a long range weapon platform that has dedicated close support then the xtra tons would help a lot.

[John MatriX82]

It's usually a bad idea, unless we're speaking of very fast Awesomes such as 9M/PB, where you can trade the risk with a speed unknown to any other assault.