1089 replies to this topic

[atdsutm]

People just can't aim well to hit Raven-3L mechs.

if they have ECM, they are still immune to every other lasers and ballistics in the game.

[hammerreborn]

Deathlike, on 04 April 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

The complicated part is making sure that the target takes some semblance of damage because you need to keep the lock on the target, which requires LOS from you or someone else. If you didn't get outside help to spot, you would need TAG or a someone "newbish" enough to keep standing out in the open.

Which is why I said it's a team weapon.

And I completely understand why LRMs worked as well as they do. 7 jagers in each match on each side meant there was no ECM, but TAG was being used by nearly all of them anyways. Just like HM is bringing poptarting even more in vogue than they already are. These things come and go in phases. There's a notable lack of splatterpults since the "nerf" to the chassis and missiles, D-DCs are no longer just srm6ing it, and the ac/20, PPCs, and guass rifles are really the defining weapons atm which is causing a rise in RSs and awesomes as well.

Which should make things very, very interesting come HSR for ballistics this month.

Edited by hammerreborn, 04 April 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

amoyngkabag, on 04 April 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

People just can't aim well to hit Raven-3L mechs.

if they have ECM, they are still immune to every other lasers and ballistics in the game.

I think this is probably a ping thing. Anecdotally, I live in Chicago so usually have ~40-50 ping, and don't have much of a problem hitting 3Ls, and ppl in general seem to have responded very positively to laser HSR.

[hammerreborn]

Royalewithcheese, on 04 April 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I think this is probably a ping thing. Anecdotally, I live in Chicago so usually have ~40-50 ping, and don't have much of a problem hitting 3Ls, and ppl in general seem to have responded very positively to laser HSR.

HSR has defintely made it easier to leg people, that's for sure. I'm legged nearly every other match.

[Jackie Butters]

Thank you for clarifying these interesting points.

I have to say, Personally I do not believe that a hard-point for ECM is a good idea, the ability to have it anywhere you please, is just as important as countering it. PPC/BAP working on ECM Good, (within restrictions), but limiting the location of ECM allows not only the experienced players from insta-destroying ECM, (twin ac-20 jaggers), or rookies who get a lucky shot off.

Think about it... you wouldn't be able to bind it to the center torso, because some mechs have weapons hard-points there, and the right and left torso are main storage points for ammo/DHS/weapons, putting it in one of the legs would allow teams to focus on a leg, then finish you off once your ECM is down... same would go for an arm, one of the most vulnerable spots...

The AMS system requires an external location for the actual machine gun to go. makes sense, however the ECM would have...(should have) the ability to go almost anywhere, because it's electronic, (like the Beagle Active Probe) and would just jack into some such port,
---
Solution?
---
The only option I then see, would be allowing the player to place ECM in either of the Center/Right/Left Torso, while only being aloud to place a single ECM mod on their mech.
(meaning that an ECM capable mech would have 3 ECM hard-points but the ability to only fit one ECM module)


TL:DR
I think the cons outweigh the benefits of having this system.

When trying to balance things, you need to keep in mind that as you remove the pro's, you can't be adding more con's...

[hammerreborn]

Jackie Butters, on 04 April 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Thank you for clarifying these interesting points.

I have to say, Personally I do not believe that a hard-point for ECM is a good idea, the ability to have it anywhere you please, is just as important as countering it. PPC/BAP working on ECM Good, (within restrictions), but limiting the location of ECM allows not only the experienced players from insta-destroying ECM, (twin ac-20 jaggers), or rookies who get a lucky shot off.

Think about it... you wouldn't be able to bind it to the center torso, because some mechs have weapons hard-points there, and the right and left torso are main storage points for ammo/DHS/weapons, putting it in one of the legs would allow teams to focus on a leg, then finish you off once your ECM is down... same would go for an arm, one of the most vulnerable spots...

The AMS system requires an external location for the actual machine gun to go. makes sense, however the ECM would have...(should have) the ability to go almost anywhere, because it's electronic, (like the Beagle Active Probe) and would just jack into some such port,
---
Solution?
---
The only option I then see, would be allowing the player to place ECM in either of the Center/Right/Left Torso, while only being aloud to place a single ECM mod on their mech.
(meaning that an ECM capable mech would have 3 ECM hard-points but the ability to only fit one ECM module)


TL:DR
I think the cons outweigh the benefits of having this system.

When trying to balance things, you need to keep in mind that as you remove the pro's, you can't be adding more con's...

People put ammo in their side torsos?

[Kon19]

I think the simplest solution is to make ECM a very fragile piece of equipment, and upping the weight a bit. That way there is a greater sacrifice in equipping ECM, and the advantages it gives can be easily knocked out if the pilot is not careful. This would make the ECM behave as it was intended, as a support weapon.

[hammerreborn]

Kon19, on 04 April 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

I think the simplest solution is to make ECM a very fragile piece of equipment, and upping the weight a bit. That way there is a greater sacrifice in equipping ECM, and the advantages it gives can be easily knocked out if the pilot is not careful. This would make the ECM behave as it was intended, as a support weapon.

It's as fragile as a guass rifle (by pure HP), and upping the weight would cause stock mechs to be overweight.

[CobaltSixty]

ECM does not need to be located to a single section, for any reason. For one, it'll just create a new game of memorizing the location for the 5 ECM mechs that there are so far, if you incorrectly choose to treat them any differently. Second, if the hit detection is going to be further improved, that is enough of an effective counter. Do you honestly think that while I'm be circled by a Commando/Spider/Raven/Cicada I'm going to take the time to focus on their ECM hardpoint before simply trying to leg/kill them? All of those mechs can still be damage-dangerous as long as they're alive, so my idea of disabling an ECM mech is to destroy it. The ONLY scenario where this might be good is on the Atlas DC, and even then the point is moot given that there's a TON of armor to get through.

TL;DR: Improve aim/hit response, and ECM will sort itself out. If pilots can more reliably damage the 4 lighter ECM mechs with good aim, their play-style will change accordingly. It will also steer the streakboat pilots away from their builds if they can actually do more damage with SRMs due to improved aim/hit response.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Quote

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2180891

What is the official stance on the Guardian ECM?
ECM brought a whole new level of strategy and skill to the battlefield and is something that we've been striving to achieve instead of flat plane, long range combat.

I hope you are not suggesting that if ECM were removed from the game we would see less 6x6SRM Catapults and 2xAC20 Jagermechs; because that would be an incorrect assumption.

What we see with ECM is more long range combat since snipers can sit back without fear of LRMs. An example of this effect is the recent LRM nerf, which lead to a massive increase in the number sniper builds since there was nothing to keep them in check. If ECM were removed, you would see the number of sniper drop off in favor of counter-LRM weapons and tactics (i.e. short range weapon).

Quote

It brought the need to be aware of your surroundings and assist team mates in a way that previous MechWarrior titles didn't have. Teams will now have to work together to counter the effects of ECM and as of February 15th, the new counters allow for multiple attack vectors against the system.

I believe you are referring to the February 19^th patch, where PPC disabled ECM for 4 seconds. First, I love PPCs and I used them before they were a “counter” to ECM. Here is what the patch did for me.

• Unless I can target an ECM mech, which I cannot, I have to guess who is carrying ECM; which of the 4 Atlases should I shoot, which one is carrying the ECM. That was a trick question, they all are, and it doesn’t matter which one I hit because it is still under the others ECM umbrella.
  
• However if by some miracle, only one atlas has ECM and I hit it and disrupt its ECM then my LRM buddy can target, lock, and fire his LRMs. Unfortunately 4 seconds is not enough time to do all that, and for the LRMs to travel to the target, so they all miss anyway.

Quote

Why was it implemented without the current counter measures?
The Guardian ECM was released at the same time as the Raven Light Mech. The Raven 3L required the ECM/BAP systems as they were the main functionality of the variant.

Query, if you removed ECM from the game do you think the Raven 3L cease to be the most popular Raven variant? The answer is no, the Raven 3L is already the best Raven option, to suggest that without ECM the Raven 3L loses its main functionality is to also suggest that the other Raven variants have not place in the game.

Quote

As mentioned above, the ECM really only affects 2 weapon systems.

Actually removes targeting from ALL weapon systems. And I thought we already had a counter for those “2 weapon systems”, it is call AMS.

Quote

Are there any plans in the near future to nerf ECM?
Before I go into any planned changes, I’d like to state two things:
First, hit detection on all Mechs was off quite a bit. This was exasperated by high speed Mechs with ping related issues causing the visual targeting and hit results to be highly inconsistent. This has been reduced significantly and with an upcoming patch, you will notice an even more drastic fix to the problem (state rewinding as addressed by Bryan and Matt C. in another Command Chair post). What does this have to do with ECM? With state rewind going into the game, it is VERY possible to take down any high-speed Mech as long as you have the aim because where you aim is going to be where you hit. ECM or not, high-speed Mechs are in for a world of hurt that they are currently not used to.

I think you are talking about two mutually exclusive things here. The ability to hit light mechs has absolutely nothing to do with how overpowered ECM is. In fact it is currently possible to effectively take down light mechs with Lasers, and yet it has had zero impact on the proliferation of ECM mechs, I am not sure why you think state rewind for ballistics and missiles will improve the situation (with regards to ECM).

Quote

Now that they are in, you will notice that ECM is not as big of an issue as it was before. Putting a PPC shot on an ECM equipped Mech makes them very vulnerable for 4 seconds... but not only that, you have also put a lot of damage into that Mech. The “Advanced Sensor Range” module allows you to get a lock on an ECM Mech at a longer distance and S-SRMs/LRMs can be fired in a larger window than before.

Actually ECM issue is worse than before. Previously the best counter to ECM was thermal vision. The changes to thermal vision actually make ECM more powerful.
Additionally putting a PPC shot on an ECM equipped mech does absolutely nothing if there is another ECM equipped mech within 180m.
And I hope you are not suggesting that a module that costs 12,500 GXP and 2,000,000 C-Bills (and a module slot) and provides an additional 50m targeting window is (between 200m and 250m) is the balancing factor for a piece of equipment that costs 0 GXP and 400,000 C-Bills and completely negates affected weapons outside of that 70m eye of the hurricane.
[seriously lets pretend for a minute that I am piloting a 150kph Raven 3L, and you are trying to hit me with LRMs. You have 70m to get a lock and fire those LRMs before I am within your 180m minimum range. 150K/H = (150K*1000M/K)/(1H/3600S)= 41.7M/S, which means you have 1.7 seconds to get a lock fire the missiles and have them travel to me before I am in the safe zone. And if my data is correct, LRMs travel at 100M/S, which means it will take them 1.8 seconds to get to travel 180m, so good luck with that. If you think your SSRMs are any better, they have a 300M/S travel time so they can travel 180m in 0.6 seconds, which gives you 1.1 seconds to target me, get a lock and pull the trigger.]

Quote

That said, there are two things suggested by the community that struck a chord and we will be looking into implementing soon:

• ECM should have a dedicated hardpoint (tonnage/space does not change). That way ECM will always be in a known location on a Mech and can be directly targeted by attackers.
  
• ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

So how do you qualify something as overpowered?
If an ECM variant is selected universally in preference to a non ECM variant?
If every mech that is ECM capable takes ECM?
If ECM universally replaces an existing technology because it is vastly superior (like AMS)?
If a team with ECM has a distinct and substantial benefit against a team without it?
If it is so powerful than it cannot be allowed on Hero mechs or it would be declared Pay to Win?
If it is so inexpensive, common, light, and small that it must be artificially excluded from all but a few variants?
If it fractures the MWO community to such a degree that a day doesn’t go by without an ECM thread being created?

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 04 April 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Apnu]

arghmace, on 04 April 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

But why does it have to give more of an advantage than any other piece of equipment in this game instead of being... you know... balanced?

Well ECM in real life is a major bit of tech that can almost win a war by itself. There is no balance for jamming the other guys intel. All you can do is know its gonna happen and plan for mitigating it as much as possible. Like real life, the balance to ECM is us the players. I don't see how it gives more of an advantage over other tech. When I'm in my Raven 3L and countered, my streaks are useless and I die. When I'm not in my raven, I don't pack streaks and have learned to lead my target. I've dropped enough on the maps to know where the good spots are and where the good paths are for the enemy. I can usally predict where the encounters are going to be. My experience trumps ECM, all day, every day. And that bit of tech costs 0 c-bills and 0 tons.

arghmace, on 04 April 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Gotta say I just pretty much lost all hope for this game ever being top notch. This is just one issue, sure, but even one big issue can ruin a game bad, and that's where we stand forever apparently.

The game is still top notch, its still MechWarrior and its got a great pedigree going all the way up to Jordan Weiseman. I really feel ECM is a minor inconvenience. It does not make or break my game play at all. I've paid for this game once, I'll pay them again (when they release a hero mech I actually like). I'm in a very serious and competitive unit who's roots stretch back to the earliest days of the AOL netmech system. HHoD is here to stay and play this game in whatever form PGI gives us. We're 300 strong and not one has a problem with ECM that I've heard on coms. I"m not here to toot HHoD's horn, just pointing out that the vast majority of the players I'm aligned with have no problems with ECM as it is now.

I know I have a Raven in my sig, but I hardly take it out now. I drive Hunchies and Cents exclusively since I've elited out my Atlases (and I really didn't like them much anyway). I deal with ECM in every game and I usually don't have a counter except my wits. Only one of the mechs I have in my bays has a PPC on it. I still post a positive K/D and W/L ratio. ECM doesn't affect my game or my stats even though I'm under its affect all the time.

My point is, the game isn't ruined for me or the members of HHoD that I've encountered.

[DocBach]

CobaltSixty, on 04 April 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

TL;DR: Improve aim/hit response, and ECM will sort itself out. If pilots can more reliably damage the 4 lighter ECM mechs with good aim, their play-style will change accordingly. It will also steer the streakboat pilots away from their builds if they can actually do more damage with SRMs due to improved aim/hit response.

Being able to be destroyed doesn't make an item balanced, at all.

[atdsutm]

Royalewithcheese, on 04 April 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I think this is probably a ping thing. Anecdotally, I live in Chicago so usually have ~40-50 ping, and don't have much of a problem hitting 3Ls, and ppl in general seem to have responded very positively to laser HSR.

most pings average around 150+ PGI should cater to around 300+

and yeah recently, it has been easier to legged lights.

-give ECM 1hp
-raven 3L speed nerfed

problems solved!

[Apnu]

Royalewithcheese, on 04 April 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I think this is probably a ping thing. Anecdotally, I live in Chicago so usually have ~40-50 ping, and don't have much of a problem hitting 3Ls, and ppl in general seem to have responded very positively to laser HSR.

I too am in Chicago, my pings are ~30 to ~40. The problems I see is when some other player has a crappy 200+ ping. In clean ping games, I have no problems hitting stuff and being hit.

[Mystere]

Silentium, on 03 April 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

It seems to me the counter boils down to "shoot the mech with ecm." Why muck with a PPC when successive shots with any weapon will effectively do the same thing in short order?

What I read in that whole announcement is that the counter to ECM is....aiming, and ECM. Well duh! hitting mechs with weapons counters just about any piece of equipment, provided you land enough shots.

By constantly shooting the lone ECM-equipped mech with PPCs, you open all mechs under ECM cover to targetting and LRM and SSRM fire. Duh to you too!

With all due respect, I think you, and the people who liked your post, should spend a bit more time on thinking and less on writing.

I think it's also time to change your new sig.

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Thontor, on 04 April 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Do put it in a spot that people would otherwise us for a heat sink or ammo, make them build around it...

Make it an actual decision on whether to use ECM or not on a variant that can use it.

ECM is easy mode. The users aren't even expected to use cover to avoid LRM, what make you think the devs would put this kind of demands on them?

Mystere, on 04 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

By constantly shooting the lone ECM-equipped mech with PPCs, you open all mechs under ECM cover to targetting and LRM and SSRM fire. Duh to you too!

Because focus fire is obviously stoopid.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 April 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Jeffries]

Dear PGI,

The actual solution is simple, just let every mech carry the ECM module. Then we all donate our 2 tons to the ECM Gods, and you can just eliminate LRMs and Streak from the game. Yay.

Or, stop with the damned umbrella effect, and bring ECM down to a level where it takes twice as long to get a lock, and sensor range is slightly reduced.

Or third, have a separate two tons of equipment (say BAP for instance) perform the counter action to ECM, instead of ECM jamming itself.

As an aside, with all of the map problems, reduced heat vision, etc. of the last patch, ECM has become even more potent. I've had matches where my D-DC can stand near a building and unload UAC/5 for minutes before someone notices where I am. It's stupid levels of overpowered for two tons of equipment. And I guarantee, the moment you allowed EVERY mech to use it, at least 90% of all mechs in the game would... and that's how you KNOW it's still overpowered.

[hammerreborn]

DocBach, on 04 April 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Being able to be destroyed doesn't make an item balanced, at all.

Funny...seeing that's how they balanced guass rifles.

[Livewyr]

Cute: People still trying to suggest changes..

60+ pages were so successful.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Livewyr, on 04 April 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Cute: People still trying to suggest changes..

60+ pages were so successful.

It is silly. PGI has really put their foot down.

Assuming you are in the camp that thinks when they brought out consumables, they purposely set it up to cause an uproar, so we would accept the toned down version.

We are done beta.

They aren't really accepting feedback at this point. It's all a basically a fascade to try and placate the player base.