1089 replies to this topic

[Boaz Roshak]

well when you [redacted] and want to balance the game I will spend money on it again until then I shale play raven L and make it a point to show others what a wonderful time ECM is an how balanced it is

Edited by miSs, 12 April 2013 - 01:34 PM.
inappropriate

[Chronicblazed]

I would like to see the BAP as a counter for a ECM. Make the BAP counter ECM effects and ECM counter BAP effects. so they neutral each other out.

[hammerreborn]

DegeneratePervert, on 11 April 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

God I hate the word "non-issue". Just SAY IT IS NOT AN ISSUE. GOD. Anyway...

ECM is annoying, and worth too much for it's weight and crit slots. But, it can be overcome, and it rightfully locks out LRMs and SSRMs. However, having said that, I think that:

1.) If Mech A mounts ECM, Mech A should prevent Mech B from firing lock on weapons.

2.) If Mech A mounts ECM, Mech A should ALSO BE PREVENTED from firing lock on weapons.

If this was implemented, then Light fights versus streak-boats would be less of a headache, and the 3L would remain a powerful tool, but not the best light around.

As I've constantly noted, that change fixes nothing. ECM user sets up a macro to fire streaks and change ecm, retains streak immunity while being able to fire just as quickly as before.

Edited by hammerreborn, 12 April 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[XSerjo]

hammerreborn, on 12 April 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

As I've constantly noted, that change fixes nothing. ECM user sets up a macro to fire streaks and change ecm, retains streak immunity while being able to fire just as quickly as before.

You can't provide SSRM lock on target inside ECM bubble, so you have to turn ECM off -> Lock missiles -> Hit -> Turn ECM on.

[IraqiWalker]

I do not believe that ECM should NOT be allowed to obscure friendlies. That's what Jamming equipment does. It isolates you, cuts you off from the group. The true terror of ECM is that your teammates see you just disappear from their scanners, and you see them gone from yours.

[MN03]

Hm, so PGI acknowledged that they don't care about balance. That is a terrible attitude. One single tiny item mitigates an entire weapon class. That's crazy and no way balanced.

[DocBach]

IraqiWalker, on 13 April 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

I do not believe that ECM should NOT be allowed to obscure friendlies. That's what Jamming equipment does. It isolates you, cuts you off from the group. The true terror of ECM is that your teammates see you just disappear from their scanners, and you see them gone from yours.

By your screen name I'm guessing you are also a veteran. With all the ECM on the truck, how were we able to still communicate via radio, or see each other on BFT? We had three different ECM systems on our MRAPS, yet we weren't isolated from the rest of the patrol except for when too much dust storms cut us off from our BFT satellites.

[Boaz Roshak]

Well I have been playing for about a year now played well over 3000 games since open Beta. I cannot recommend it and would warn people away from this game. Since my last post was edited because it was too much to the point here it is in a much more drawn out way. If I thought I could I would ask for and take a refund and just walk away annoyed.
In the beginning this was amazing and brought back so many memories. It was closed beta and the game was a little ruff but fun. They would try to fix too much at once and break something else and we saw much tweaking to many things to make the game better. Streak cats where annoying as the only defense was to be out of range or having something between you and them as the missiles would and still do come out of the tubes at 90deg angles and will orbit you until they are able to hit. When there was a complaint, we were told --. it’s the way they work streaks always hit their target if they fire. They changed it so they did not always hit CT then have more or less changed it back. Then came the ECM it bears little resemblance to the ECM from Battle Tech. But its ok because this is not the table top game and just because it was that way does not mean they have to--. Unless I guess it comes to streak...
When complaints about ECM where raised we were told how there was going to be counters to it. As out yet the only sure fire, defense is to run one of the 5 mechs that can have it. They made PPC’s able to temporarily disrupt it not something from table top either but hey if you are going to make a super toy you might as well add special abilities to other things also in an attempt to justify the super toy. Tag was heralded as a fix although they had to change the range on that to make it even sort of work.
It truly makes me question how much of this game they play but it does spot light a huge flaw in this game. At present, this game is effectively 3 different games masquerading as one without counting the two types of game play. There is the pickup game jump in and fight that they have said they were looking for. There is the people who play as 4 or less people in voice communication with each other with the rest of the team made up of other players matched to them by the system. Then there are the 8 man teams in voice communication with each other. I suspect ECM is not a huge factor for the organized teams but for the rest it one of the most decisive factor in a win or loss. The flaw is the game lacks lobbies to get together in to form teams it lacks its own voice communication system to work with people you are grouped with.
The real kick in the face on this whole thing is that they told us this was all under review and came back with yep working, as we want… wow really, everything that you say is a counter was well established already last time you told us you were going to review it why bother drawing it out. Well I guess there goes the last bit of commonality I had with the games designers and my willingness to pay for the game. I guess I could run around as a raven or commando with my ECM and streaks and hunt in at least two man groups and so as to help demonstrate how broke ECM is in the form that they think is ok. I am not a greffer by nature but I do like to highlight issues maybe I will make a macro that says “Working as intended take it up with PGI if you don’t like it”.

[Valaska]

IraqiWalker, on 13 April 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

I do not believe that ECM should NOT be allowed to obscure friendlies. That's what Jamming equipment does. It isolates you, cuts you off from the group. The true terror of ECM is that your teammates see you just disappear from their scanners, and you see them gone from yours.

Well, even suites now a days don't take away the ability to directly communicate, or even take away lock ability for missiles based on heat signature WHIIICH the LRM's can do, and they can lock radar, or energy sources! There were a few ways the LRM's locked onto things, varied book to book but I took it as they can lock in multiple ways.

Also, it doesn't matter what you think about real life paradigms, its not a fun or balanced feature. There is no true way that you can counter ECM, without ECM, that is fun... And even then Countering something just by equipping it isn't on my list of fun ****.

[Twisted Power]

I would agree with many of you here about referrals. Due to ECM I no longer refer this game. Signed a founder. Isn't that ironic?

Edited by Twisted Power, 13 April 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Karandur]

I just recently started playing, so I'm guessing these questions have been answered but I was wondering why the Guardian ECM suite implemented is so different from the Battletech rules on two points?


Per the Battletech rules-
Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.
Or in more detail:
The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers.
Active Probe: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed,however.
Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus.
Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM.

Have the Dev’s stated their logic for having ECM completely prevent missile locks or even showing up on radar?

Again per the Battletech rules-
Any ECM suite can be set to ECCM mode to jam enemy ECM suites. The ECM suite in this mode loses its normal functions when used this way. While in ECCM mode, any enemy ECM transmissions within range will be neutralized. If multiple units are in an area with ECM and ECCM active, calculating which system rules out becomes complicated. This is because multiple ECM suites can counter enemy ECCM transmissions. One suite in ECCM mode counters one suite in ECM mode, and renders the intersecting area void of ECM (but not void of ECCM). Two intersecting ECM suites can overpower the ECCM transmissions, and render the intersecting area present with ECM transmissions.

Have the Dev’s stated their logic for implementing ECM without ECCM?

Edited by Karandur, 14 April 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[Karandur]

Thanks Thontor. I just guessed there wasn't a counter mode since I've never seen it turned on while spectating.

Edited by Karandur, 14 April 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Ravenspyre]

Karandur, on 14 April 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Thanks Thontor. I just guessed there wasn't a counter mode since I've never seen it turned on while spectating.

3L's only turn it on when they are going to be streak spamming another ECM mech.

[Ryebear]

BAP being a counter to the ECMs stealth umbrella always made sense to me. A teammate with BAP with line of site on any mechs in the umbrella are now target-able by all teammates would be grand. The extra 20m target window for the bubble and whatever increase in max sense range really isnt enough to make BAP worth taking ever let alone damaging the use of ECM.

ECM in counter mode should counter ALL ECM within it's bubble and not just the closest ECM. When an ECM is in counter mode, it doesnt provide any utility to the ECM carrier/team other than disabling other ECMs, It would make ECM more situation instead of an omniscient piece of equipment.

And that said, streaks shouldnt operate on a lockon guaranteed hit basis (barring environmental interference). They should operate like they do in the table top (only time you will hear me say this), they should simply not fire when the fire button is clicked unless at least 1 missile will hit the target. This is assuming at some point you will up the missile damage or blast radius to make them a more feared force again.

Oh and while you are at it, make TAG a toggle but have a hud identifier for the TAG'ed mech. It will help actually being able to TAG an ECM light as well as provide a mild downside to the added utility of TAG.

Edited by Ryebear, 14 April 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Ryebear, on 14 April 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Oh and while you are at it, make TAG a toggle but have a hud identifier for the TAG'ed mech. It will help actually being able to TAG an ECM light as well as provide a mild downside to the added utility of TAG.

How is this not a straight nerf to TAG? Is it really that hard to hold a mouse click down?

[Xipe Totec]

The more I think of it, the more current ECM remind me of Windows 8.

Windows 8 still gets praised as great and innovative and "exactly as intended" despite being kinda a terrible failure (functionally and sales-wise), especially by everyone at Microsoft. This is largely because their CEO furnished insights into its development and so many of the people involved have retained their position by being mewling yes-men.

This is an especially large problem in the gaming industry, which tends to run on tyrannical and mercurial systems. This is not to say PGI is necessarily that way, but that anyone who has worked in the industry for an extended period of time tends to take "don't cross the boss," as the natural state of being.

There are literally libraries of books on the damage this tends to bring about, but it remains a continuing trend which is hard to buck. Doubly so in new projects being filled by people who may be industry vets but lack heavy paper (AAA releases, degrees) to back them in confrontations.

[zztophat]

Xipe Totec, on 14 April 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

The more I think of it, the more current ECM remind me of Windows 8.

Windows 8 still gets praised as great and innovative and "exactly as intended" despite being kinda a terrible failure (functionally and sales-wise), especially by everyone at Microsoft. This is largely because their CEO furnished insights into its development and so many of the people involved have retained their position by being mewling yes-men.

This is an especially large problem in the gaming industry, which tends to run on tyrannical and mercurial systems. This is not to say PGI is necessarily that way, but that anyone who has worked in the industry for an extended period of time tends to take "don't cross the boss," as the natural state of being.

There are literally libraries of books on the damage this tends to bring about, but it remains a continuing trend which is hard to buck. Doubly so in new projects being filled by people who may be industry vets but lack heavy paper (AAA releases, degrees) to back them in confrontations.

I have long suspected that this is a case of someone high up at PGI liking the current implementation of ECM and so even if most members of the design team and the the vast majority of the player base don't; it may not change. It does feel like in this case whoever created the ECM thinks it's great and is disregarding the opinions of anyone that disagrees or may want to tamper with their "baby".

Of course it's easy to ignore people on issues like this if you think they are just too dumb to understand why the thing you created is "great", however in this instance I do not think that over time people will ever grow to "understand" the "value" of ECM as it currently stands.


The gameplay limiting factors of ECM aside and the lame counters (stated as ECM counters ECM and shooting the mech carrying ECM counters ECM) and the exactly 0 skill needed to use ECM aside; I think the worst possible thing about ECM is how unfriendly it is to new players. ECM against new players who don't understand it's function is DEVASTATING and no doubt frustrating, this is compounded by the fact that in no way is this ever explained to a player (at least a friggin' tooltip PGI?).

[aseth]

While I know this is so far into this thread that it'll never get read by a dev...

ECM should cover the mech using it passively. You should be able to toggle it on to create the dome of coverage, but this should cost heat over time (and turn off when shutdown). It should not have the ability to create the counter field.

BAP should be able to toggle into the counter-field mode, removing the other benefits from it. This too could cost heat over time.

Those processors run hot.

[wolf74]

Said it before will say it again. The problem with ecm is it was the 1st electronic in the game to keep it from being died weight they gave it a lot of power thinking they could counter it with the other electronics. The problem is a "cart before the horse" problem. The other electronics were not made to counter the ecm. ECM was made to counter the other electronics.
In other words if ecm did just it cbt job, it would only remove the extra sensor ranges from BAP, Block active narc pods, Artiums FCS flight path with in the 180m bubble. With this change tag could be dropped back down to it's cbt range too boot.

Now I don't mind giving it the following as well
1. It takes longer to get a lock on target in the ecm bubble (LOS needed)
2. You lose you current lock faster than normal if the target in a ecm bubble.
3. Block sharing of targeting data.
4. Block weapon and damage readouts of the mech carrying the ecm.(does not block a target lockon thoe)

Edited by wolf74, 14 April 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

Xipe Totec, on 14 April 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

There are literally libraries of books on the damage this tends to bring about, but it remains a continuing trend which is hard to buck.

Libraries? Really? Hook me up. That sounds like some important (if perhaps dry) reading.