95 replies to this topic

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Mahws, on 03 April 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Just realized the thread posted twice. Sorry for the mess folks, hopefully the mods will clean it up.


Simple. Double heatsinks. Because it saves me ten tonnes and ten slots. In fact for one slot of space less than ten single heatsinks (20 single heatsinks value) I can have three double heatsinks (24.2 single heatsinks heat sinks value). And seven tonnes spare for more ammo, bigger guns, a better engine, or more armor.

in the Legs you can put 4XSHS , and not one DHS...the Problem is the Space of the DHS , in the most chassies not space for DHS, XL-Engine or DHS ,or Endosteel ?
and in most of the build you need to heavys and assault more than just the engine 10 HS

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 04 April 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[Black Templar]

tried to convince four of my buddies to play MW:O with me. three of them left due to orientation problems. to my mind SHS is not the problem, it is the way the mechs handle. torso/leg allignment seems to be the main problem here. SHS won't change a thing about that...3rd person view might do the trick.

[jakucha]

We just need to replace all the trial mechs with community designed ones like the dragon version.

[TexAce]

Doubles are UPGRADES. Thats why they cost money, much money, because they give you an advantage.

Just make a trial mech/stock mech only queue and everything will be fine. <- This only would have benefits.

[jakucha]

TexAss, on 04 April 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Doubles are UPGRADES. Thats why they cost money, much money, because they give you an advantage.

Just make a trial mech/stock mech only queue and everything will be fine. <- This only would have benefits.

That will just anger the people who claim adding an extra queue will make searching for games take 10 hours

[TexAce]

jakucha, on 04 April 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

That will just anger the people who claim adding an extra queue will make searching for games take 10 hours

no it won't because happy trial mech users (and "give us stock only!" users) -> more new users -> more overall players -> faster matchmaking and better and fairer matchmaking, since you can't stomp newbs anymore.

Seriously, this is the answer.

Edited by TexAss, 04 April 2013 - 02:53 AM.

[MN03]

I started playing about 2 months ago. I'm considering shelfing the game for now because of:
1) Bugs, bugs, bugs. I have never experienced so many bugs and I have played a lot of online games. It's a beta, but PGI is very slow in fixing them (also, some fixes bring a new set of bugs).
2) Lack of content. There are only 2 modes, assault and conquest. I hope this will change with the CW update.
3) Balance. Ok, It's impossible to get a perfect balance. But again, changes come so slow. I just read that ECM will have minor changes after 5 months of community feedback. That's insane.

MWO has the potentional to be great, but I get the feeling it's being pushed the other way.

[Mahws]

l4Dl, on 04 April 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

I think the main problem here is not SHS or DHS, but, the design of the trial mechs themselves.
They need to accommodate new players with no understanding of heat management. You cant give them 70% cooling and full weapon loadouts, but, on the other hand, you need to give them something playable/fun.

The main problem with trial mechs is SHS/DHS.

They may not be optimal builds (and some are downright laughable) but the fact that they have half the effective firepower of a double heatsink build is their big handicap. It turns "I want to buy my own mech so I can customize it and improve the loadout" to "I want to buy my own mech so the game will be fair". That's not a good way to introduce people to your game.

Cyron Zarva, on 04 April 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

Having played the TT version, I came into this game (a couple days ago) knowing that I would have to upgrade to DHS as soon as I could. The fact that SHS suck so badly doesn't mean that DHS should be a free (or only) option, however. It's something that people should want to upgrade, to make their 'Mechs better. Asking for their removal (or upgrading them to somehow be equivalent to DHS when they're not supposed to be) is just asking for an easy button, imo.

An easy button? What's difficult about grinding another fifteen matches to afford double heatsinks?

Single heatsinks don't add challenge to the game. You're either an experienced player who doesn't use them or an inexperienced player who has no choice. They're useless filler that only serves the purpose of a c-bill sink or a handicap for newbies. And heck most newbies won't even know that they exist, so the only impact they have on their game experience is "Why can all of these players with paintjobs fire their weapons twice as often as me? This game is ********".

Kmieciu, on 04 April 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

And as for SHS: 10 SHS is only enough for a single Medium Laser to be heat neutral. Even the stock SDR-5V is easy to overheat. The Devs given up on them - the latest "Build a trial mech" is a clear proof. DHS is a money sink, since you have to have them on any competitive build. Grinding C-Bills motivates gamers to buy Premium time.

It is not a conspiracy: more C-Bill sinks = more premium time sold = more $$$ for PGI.

They will probably replace all the trial mechs with DHS bulds, so when a player buys his own mech he will already know he has to upgrade. That is also the reason why we can't buy "bare-bone" chassis, but have to spend on engines and weapons we already have.

You might be right, but I don't think that'll help them in the long run. They have plenty of c-bill sinks already. Paintjobs, new mechs, weapons and soon enough decals. Slapping on an extra 1.5 mil to the cbill cost doesn't help them make a profit if it's scaring away new customers or making older ones bitter and jaded about their business model.

Michael Costanza, on 04 April 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Q: Why do single heat sinks exist? A: Double heat sinks were basically lost-tech from 2800 to 3050ish.

Atlases so rare that you're unlikely to see more than ten on a world. AC2 do 10% of the damage of an AC20 over ten seconds. Machine guns do the same damage over ten seconds as an AC2. Changing the weapon loadout of a mech is an extremely expensive and complicated process and thus customized mechs are extremely rare. A Catapult-K2 can fire its PPCs as often as it likes without overheating. ECM isn't a magical stealth field. Mechs are rare and valuable and an individual owning more than one is practically unheard of, let alone more than one assault mech. Battles don't stop after the first fifteen minutes pass. XL engines and endosteel are extremely rare and valuable.

I think we're a little past claiming that canon takes priority over game balance by this point.

Edited by Mahws, 04 April 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[Ghogiel]

The trial mech experience is over in at most a couple hours. Once they get their own mech, which they can probably do within and hour or 2, that's where the issue in player retention happens. Assuming there is one.

[King Arthur IV]

noob vs fully loaded vet is harsh.
this game has plenty other ways besides 3rd person to help players get in and linger for a while.

[Vassago Rain]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f2fb8c76b5af201

Here's a mech that doesn't need tech items at all to be good, but adding anything to it makes it better. Since this is a PVP game, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever not to do this.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa5dac961ab472e

Running singles, even for dakka builds that produce virtually no heat, still cripples you.

[Koreanese]

you guys wanting 2.0 HS are asking for more punishment. look at all the veteran players that are going around wrecking people. do you possibly think by having a 2.0 is going to help you? NO. just NO. more firepower to you means, more firepower to the vets who can effectively use that to kill you even faster then you can imagine!. would you like to die within 5 sec of seeing a enemy mech? or have a descent fight that can last a little. Just think about it. I do just fine with current DHS and I believe it is well balanced. actually, it would be nice to have 2.0 so I can just alpha strike 6 large laser into your core twice without overheating. sure! give me 2.0 dhs. lets see how that would work out

[Vassago Rain]

CSJ Ranger, on 04 April 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

in the Legs you can put 4XSHS , and not one DHS...the Problem is the Space of the DHS , in the most chassies not space for DHS, XL-Engine or DHS ,or Endosteel ?
and in most of the build you need to heavys and assault more than just the engine 10 HS

Legs are for ammo. A good builder won't leave a single critical slot wasted.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fea78b81047bbbd

You're making the dangerous assumption that there's any kind of reason to not min-max in a PVP game. I put ammo in the arms, because you won't shoot my arms. You also don't understand how endo and engines interact.

[Mahws]

Ghogiel, on 04 April 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

The trial mech experience is over in at most a couple hours. Once they get their own mech, which they can probably do within and hour or 2, that's where the issue in player retention happens. Assuming there is one.

Why would I stick around for a couple of hours? Even after I figure out the basic controls I'm still placing at the bottom of the scoreboard every match and getting my *** handed to me in every fight by people with custom mechs.

I stopped playing World of Tanks once I got out of the T1 play pen and was constantly getting killed by players who'd ground out bigger and better tanks. If I was new to MW:O and not a huge fan of the previous games then I'd probably do the same here. When you're a new player grind to win feels no different than pay to win.

CSJ Ranger, on 04 April 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

in the Legs you can put 4XSHS , and not one DHS...the Problem is the Space of the DHS , in the most chassies not space for DHS, XL-Engine or DHS ,or Endosteel ?
and in most of the build you need to heavys and assault more than just the engine 10 HS

Any mech that uses twenty or less single heatsinks is immediately better with doubles. Unless you're running a small engined ML boating assault the ten free standard heatsinks you get free in the engine when you upgrade to double heatsinks will always save you more tonnes and in most cases more slots.

Edited by Mahws, 04 April 2013 - 03:46 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

This is what heatsinks really are. You have the little potions, that do very little, and once you can afford/find big potions, you never use little potions again, except when you come upon a store of readily available free ones.

If you've ever played any of the Diablo games, you should know all about this already. You're never gonna see anyone carry anything less than the best potions, right down to 4 rows of 4 big purple ones. Why would you go for small, weak potions? There's nothing to gain from it, like there's nothing to gain from single sinks in MWO.

[Spooky01]

Because of wasted tonnage and single slots left open after a build, even though this should increase the speed of the Mech but doesn't. I feel that we should be able to use BOTH on a build.

[Mazzyplz]

make large engines fit 5 single heatsinks instead of 2 doubles.
that would fix a lot of stuff.

you don't need to touch the rest

it makes sense too: why only space for 2 single heatsink?
if the double HS are double the size? if you could fit 5 singles you could only fit 2 doubles, becuse there's no space for 3 doubles.

problem solved

ps. oh and no; not using BOTH, that would break a lot of stuff IMO

Edited by Mazzyplz, 04 April 2013 - 03:52 AM.

[stjobe]

Point of order: There's three types of DHS.

Those that come with the engine; these are "true" 2.0 DHS.
Those that can be fitted inside the engine; these are 1.4 DHS.
Those that can be fitted outside the engine; these are 1.4 DHS.

Or even simpler: ONLY the heat sinks that come with the engine are 2.0.

So a 195-rated engine, that comes with 8 heat sinks, needs 2 more to get to the required 10. These additional 2 can't be fitted inside the engine and are thus 1.4

A 300-rated engine comes with 10 heat sinks and can fit a further 2 inside the engine. These additional two are also 1.4.

So it's not strictly true that every 'mech gets 20 SHS worth of cooling from 10 DHS; it's dependent on what rating the engine is. A 100-rated engine (4 heat sinks) would only get 8 + (6*1.4) = 17.4 SHS equivalent.

Either way, DHS are an almost straight upgrade from SHS, so anyone that can afford to buy them would be rather silly not to.

Edited by stjobe, 04 April 2013 - 04:05 AM.

[King Arthur IV]

Vassago Rain, on 04 April 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

Legs are for ammo. A good builder won't leave a single critical slot wasted.

if your statement was true, then this is a good build. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a263c8fc686338

all jokes aside and back on topic.

getting stompped because of upgrade difference is not a good way to invite noobs to the game.

Edited by King Arthur IV, 04 April 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[TexAce]

Again stock-only/trial-only mech queue solves the problem.

there are a lot MW fans who stopped playing MWO because they didnt like min-max builds and the loose hardpoint system and who would very much appreciate a stock only queue. Since trials are stock too most of the times this would solve all the heatsink problems too.

Edited by TexAss, 04 April 2013 - 04:53 AM.