313 replies to this topic

[John MatriX82]

Tie Ma, on 03 April 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

the 3L will still dominate in the light circuit. no light mech can carry ER PPC to combat the ECM/sSRM combo.

and if they allowed everymech to have ECM. it would be the replacement for AMS. nobody would ever carry AMS. and everbody would have ECM.

Indeed they must make that any ECM bearer can be locked (of course with longer lock-on times unless you don't narc/tag him or use BAP to speed up the lock-on) onto by streaks and lrms whenever gets under 250m from any enemy mech, making it spotted for the rest of the team. Do you have BAP? Detection range increases to 300m, lock on is slower than when locking unecm'd mechs but faster than without bap). Do you have BAP and bear the Adv. Sensor Range module? Detection range is upped to 350m. No Bap but Adv Sensor Range? 300m again.

With or without modules and bap, once anyone with ECM gets closer than 250m from any enemy mech, he becomes spotted. Reduce tag range accordingly (making it go back to either 450 or 500m). ECM would be a tactical tool to infiltrate enemy lines, spot, tag, snipe, go capping undetected thanks for the new heat vision that cuts out at 750m.


Neutering the situational awareness break in the map is a nice nerf, but it's still not enough. Screw counter mode and make that ECM applies only to the bearer.
With ECM still working with counter/distrupt Streaks along with 2Ds and 3Ls will keep being the easy mode and with ECM still covering allied mechs it is going to remain too effective, due to the alternative vision modes nerf.

[Belorion]

Livewyr, on 04 April 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

It's been 5 months and they're happy with about where it's at. Exactly how slowly do you want?

They have access to greater numbers than we have. Ecm may not be the great advantage some people believe it is.

[MegaZordTrololo]

I voted yes, mainly because my main problem with ECM is the disorientation it causes. It is very important to know whether your team has your back, if ECM can no longer deprive me of this information then I have far less problem with it.

Saying that, an Atlas should not get ECM capability, this is just ridiculous.

[Lord Perversor]

Belorion, on 04 April 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

They have access to greater numbers than we have. Ecm may not be the great advantage some people believe it is.

Then i dare PGi to *disable* ECM for a week, and let's see how well it fare in the game.

I already lived that and it was STREAKS STREAKS EVERYWHERE!!. ECm was made broken and OP to counter another broken and OP weapon system wich is the Streak aim.

Since the ECM appearance the complaints about streaks are almost gone, but i can tell you wait until the Clan tech appear and we start to get SStreak 6, if that happens just tomorrow, the Whineage about the Trollmando will made the forums explode.

[Zyllos]

Cryll Ankiseth, on 03 April 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Having ECM in a mountable spot makes sense, and would probably please the lot of players who cry about it being OP.

But not covering your friendlies position on a map? What? That defeats the purpose of having an ECM on an Atlas.

Hah...that is one of ECM's game breaking abilities.

This was the one ability that needed to go. AECM is suppose to cover allies. GECM is meant for covering yourself.

Edited by Zyllos, 04 April 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[Viper69]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

In before lock.

Plus, your poll doesn't even have Abstain.

Not voting is abstaining..."I vote to abstain!" yeah so dont vote, there you go.

[Iacov]

proposed changes are welcome
i still voted "no", because there is nothing mentioned on how to improve BAP
BAP and ECM are natural enemies...and whilst ECM is considered overpowered, BAP is considered totally useless

working on ECM but letting BAP die in silence is halfhearted

[Inkarnus]

i personally still think ECM should be a scout mech only device and not fit into an atlas wich certainly
hasnt the role of spying on enemy team or anything a true scoutmech can archieve with it
and has more of a supporting role instead getting it for free just cuz you can
i think they should put up 2 kinds of ECM
1 kind like now for scouts
and 1 kind that just disables the effects for your own mech
would fix alot of problems

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Half the forum hit YES. I guess it's now proven fact that half the forum is stupid. I already suspected that, but now it's proven.

Edited by Bluten, 04 April 2013 - 05:44 AM.

[MechWarrior131925]

Zylo, on 03 April 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

It could just as easily be solved by requiring ECM to be switched OFF (a new setting added) to use locking weapons as an ECM mech. It wouldn't make any real difference in light vs light fights because 2 ECM lights fighting each other generally counter each other to use streaks. Not always but that is usually the case.

This is what I have been saying too. It does not make sense that an ECM carrying mech is allowed to perform a lock on of their own equipment. The counter measures should effect the entire area including the mech that has it equipped. Negating any mechs locking ability for streaks but allowing the equipped mech to continue to use their own streak locking just does not make sense. ECM is an area effect, if it were targeting specific mechs maybe that would be different but I still say...If the ECM equipped mech is in disrupt mode then ALL (including the ECM equipped Mech) mechs in the area are affected.

For a little further explanation on this for LRMS. Locking is not eliminated outside the ECM bubble. Any mech that is in the bubble (friendly or equipped) can still lock on enemy mechs outside the bubble.

Edited by Maximum Destruction, 04 April 2013 - 05:50 AM.

[Shadowsword8]

Belorion, on 04 April 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

They have access to greater numbers than we have. Ecm may not be the great advantage some people believe it is.

You don't need access to server-side stats to know that finding an ECM-capable mech without ECM equiped is like finding a needle in a haystack, and that must have = broken.

Or that it does far too much for a measly 1.5 ton.



I have seen over ten years of MMO balancing, and a few generalities can an must be applied to achieve acceptable balance, whatever the game. One of them is that a counter to an offensive effect must require less sacrifice than said offensive effect. For exemple, something that give 50% resistance to fire damage in a random game must be more easy to use/cheaper/have shorter cooldown that something else that double your fire damage.

And look at what we have about ECM:

- ECM: 1.5 tons, 360° area of effect, passive, effective even throught a hill.

- Tag: 1 ton, take a laser slot (require you to sacrifice some firepower), require line of sight, require you to keep aim at the ECM source (and ignore anything else happening around you), not effective within 180m. Not effective if there's another hostile ECM source within 180m.

- PPC: 7 tons, huge ressource drain (high heat generated to keep one PPC running), require line of sight, require very precise aim at long range, ineffective against overlapping ECM fields.


The conclusion is obvious: the "counters" PGI indroduced to balance ECM are failing horribly to do so. Currently the only thing that deserve to be called a viable counter is.... another ECM.

[Jetfire]

I think this is basically perfect once state rewinds are all finished.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I like the changes, but I voted No since they didn't go far enough.

The real fix that I'd like to see (and the only one I see as really being able to be balanced long-term) is to transition from a system of hard counters to one of bonuses and penalties.

ECM should reduce the range at which a target can be spotted on the radar. It should increase lock-on timers for LRMs and Streaks against targets under ECM protection, and if the targeting mech is under hostile ECM it should increase even more. ECM should also increase spread on incoming LRM flight patterns. It should cut the broadcast range of NARC in half when the NARC beacon is under an ECM cloud. It should cut the broadcast range of target data between allied mechs by half when under hostile ECM cover.

TAG should give a moderate bonus to all friendly LRMs in lock-on time and spread. It should partially counter ECM penalties to both spread and lock-on (basically reduce the penalty by the bonus that TAG provides).

Artemis IV should be like TAG, but with larger absolute bonuses (since it's heavier, bulkier, and can't be shared with friendlies), and it should not stack. It should reduce the ECM penalty in the same way as TAG (but the bigger bonus would cancel out penalties to a greater degree).

NARC should last for thirty seconds or until the location it hit is destroyed, and it should help missiles to seek the target more nimbly and it should broadcast a 750m range sensor target regardless of line of sight. ECM should cut that in half.

BAP should increase base sensor range, and within 180m it should allow sensor returns regardless of line of sight (such as urban environments). ECM should cut that super-detection range in half.

Advanced Sensor modules should increase base sensor range, and should allow detection of ECM-protected targets from farther away.

What this does is it entirely prevents any one system from making any other single system useless. It gives all the electronic systems a place that is unique to it, and allows for synergy among the various systems (so, for examlple, a Raven with BAP, ECM, TAG, and NARC isn't wasting all its tonnage as each system does something distinct and useful). Even without any electronics, Streaks and LRMs would still be able to hurt ECM-protected targets, it'd just be much harder to do since the lock-on timer would be much longer.

One side effect of this would be that LRMs and Streaks would need a balance pass. I'd recommend increasing LRM flight speed a bit, increasing the cooldown on them a bit, increasing the Streak cooldown (they should be very accurate but not great for sustained damage output), and tweaking LRM scatter. I'd like to see LRMs become something of an AOE weapon, doing lots of splash damage to a somewhat wider area, with Artemis IV and TAG being used to turn them into single-target weapons.

[Fate 6]

Once again showing that PGI doesn't understand either their players or how to make balance changes.

There's a reason League of Legends is successful, and it's not just because they have a really good money model and listen to their players. They also don't have hard counters. They have counters, but they don't automatically win.

ECM is a hard counter to lock-on missiles. You have to bring your own soft-counters to ECM, or bring an ECM which is a hard-counter to itself resulting in more ECM. We've all noticed fewer ECM mechs laterly, but that ISN'T BECAUSE ECM IS BALANCED. It is because people got bored of running the same mech over and over for months, and missiles are bugged/nerfed and the ECM mechs just happen to be missile heavy. If PGI did another tournament with lights or assaults being measured, you can bet we would see a massive influx of ECM.

Fix ECM, stop balancing the rest of the game around it.

Edited by Fate 6, 04 April 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[Roadbeer]

ECM is fine, it's the rest of you that are unbalanced.

This is serious business and it deserves a poll.

[Ransack]

Not at all, but I am not a part of their target audience now. I think that they jumped the shark by adding it then taking five months and tons of user feedback to say basically nothing's going to change, but you can reduce the effects by slotting (Insert expensive partially effective module here) and further reduce the effects by hitting the carrier with ppc.

Too cheap for what it does. The "Counters" hurt you either by robbing you of a weapon hardpoint, raising your heat, or costing more CBills than the ECM did.

[Oni Ralas]

Still get a kick out of "their implimentation" of ECM. It went from a lock-jamming (not preventing) tool to a stealth bubble and full lock counter. Its broken from the start mechanic wise, and all the counters in place are pathetic.

Any tech capable of jamming locks yet not jamming those INSIDE the same bubble is quite impressive (read: not possible). Still say that if you're in the ECM bubble you get to enjoy the anti-lock capabilities...but you yourself cannot lock in return. Can't have both mechanics at the same time.

[sarkun]

My only gripe with ECM is that it has no drawbacks - if you own a ECM-capable Mech equipping ECM is ALWAYS the right choice. Now you will have to equip it in a fixed location. Boo-hoo. Nothing changes. So no, I'm not satisfied.

[Inkarnus]

btw is this even working ?
Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM.
bt rules somewhere

would atleast make narc viabel and LRM as counters

Edited by Inkarnus, 04 April 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[Ryokens leap]

Not having teammates position magically disappear will absolutely help pugs and new players not on comms. As soon as mini map goes blank pugs scatter to the winds in a panic, focus fire fail, team gets rolled.