313 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

I am glad we finally received a response. I am pissed it took 5 months to basically keep it the same.

My biggest concern with ECM is how it affects dominates the Information warfare (IW). We were promised an extensive meta game with multiple roles. Instead everything boils down to you either having ECM or not.

Next, ECM was supposed to be used as a scouting tool, however it is better used as an assault tool. I also feel that the light class meta game suffers. Why pilot anything non-ECM?

And finally ECM disproportionately effect pugs than sync drop groups. Pugs have no means of ensuring a team member has ECM, or ECM counters. Nor do they have a way to quickly communicate without using 'r' to target enemies. Removing the friendly IFF jamming is a start, however it is not enough.

The fact that ECM counters simply remove it from battle temporarily is a bad mechanic. Nothing should ever be hard countered. Instead ECM should have been properly devised so it does not have to be removed from the field in order to have a "fun" game.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 April 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Teralitha]

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

The radar disruption only occurs at extreme close range. Is it normal for an intelligence gathering scout to be with in smelling distance of the enemy?
No one ever did that before because the reality of play makes it nearly impossible. Thermals would give you away or while moving a tiny portion of your mech would give you away. The only cause were it could work is if you managed to hide in a gully/behind a hill out of LOS in which case ECM is not a factor.

I said an LRM specialized team, as per your previous comments. And yes, people driving raven 3L's do it all the time, when there is cover to hide your thermal signature and he enemy happens to be distracted by your other team mates. They charge in and brawl, and disrupt the enemy's radar, while their own team rushes in and focuses them down. The enemy cannot focus as their radar is being disrupted. Light mechs with ECM brawl all the time. I mean... their most effective builds are all short range, so naturally they brawl.

Quote

Let's avoid these extreme situations. The only time I've seen this happen is in 8 mans where the meta game is/was legitimately broken. It's extremely rare that a team has 8 ECM mechs and I have never seen an all LRM/SSRM team.

So you agree the meta game in 8 man is broken, due to ECM. Thank you.

Edited by Teralitha, 04 April 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

You are so wrong.... LOL And Your statement is completely backwards my friend... its MWO that has a fraction of the depth that MW4 had. You seriously must have only played MW4 for 1 day to have that opinion. I regularly killed those daishi noobs while I piloted lights and mediums.... but then, I was an exceptionally skilled pilot. Anyone of below average skill would have your opinion of that game....

What Teralitha is trying to say here is..'I was a GOD in MW4 and now I'm a peon and that's so messed up it's not funny, turn MWO into MW4 NOW because it sucks because I can't be a GOD again in an unbalanced PoS game!'.

Pretty sure that's what was meant, it does seem to be a recurrent theme with his posts.

I've never had a problem with how PGI implemented ECM, but I also haven't had a problem hitting my targets either, with the exception of the Raven hitbox issues and the general netcode issues with fast moving targets, one of which has been fixed and the other has been mostly fixed. I also didn't have any problems using LRMs against ECM targets, but I also know how to use TAG or just plain dumbfire my LRMs without a lock. I don't use Streaks, so maybe that's the real problem?

Can't dumbfire Streaks in the first place, seen people claim that was due to ECM..no, it's due to them being Streaks, no lock no firing allowed. And so many people have abused the hell out of Streaks due to the multiple bugs related to them. Most of which have been fixed now, making them..well..less then what they were. My Spider takes Raven 3Ls apart now, as it should have doing all along as I can aim and they can't, which is clearly shown by the fact that every single time I enage a Raven 3L, they NEVER fire their lasers..even if I'm in a Stalker, they only use the Streaks...why is that? Could it be...unskilled players who can't hit the side of a Stalker at 20m relying on a broken weapon system like Streaks? NAH!

Funny how few 3Ls are in the field any more..and how quickly they die....

[zmeul]

Seigaku, on 04 April 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

There should be 2 kinds of ECM, and you can only have 1 equipped.

1st version: it only hides near friendlies mechs from the radar like it does now. but doesn't disrupts enemy sensors
2nd version: disrupts enemy sensor, but it doesn't hides anyone.

I think I said a similar thing in the other older thread

ECM should have 2 switchable operating modes

• creates a cover bubble and hides yourself and any other same team mech inside it's radius
  
• creates a disruption ECM field / bubble that makes enemy mechs inside it's radius to experience increased lock times, but doesn't not make your mech untargetable; this mode also nullifies mode 1 and mode 2 enemy ECM

Edited by zmeul, 04 April 2013 - 01:01 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Its not a tactical decision. Its just plain stupid to bring LRMs now. Pre ECM, you know what skilled players did to those LRM boats hiding at the back? We flanked them and killed them. Missles dont work inside 180meters... THAT is how those were countered. USING REAL SKILL. Not using some ECM noob I win device.

If that is the case the 8 man's I've been in want to have a word with you. LRM's are rare because LRM's are bad right now. When LRM's are viable again they will once again be quite common.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Actually it is very easy, just requires time to program. My suggestion for this is already sent to the devs(a long time ago). But just to put it in lay terms for you.... MW4 LRM mechanic. Its based entirely on skill, and allows you to target any hitbox by actually aiming it.

The MW4 mechanic was terrible. You acquired a lock and if your crosshair was on the target the missiles would home on that area. If not the lock would guide the missiles there but some would miss. A good mechanic was in MW3 where you could vector the direction of the missiles to fire them at a specfic angle but at the same time a mech moving at least 84kph could change direction timed correctly and dodge the missiles. You could also in MW3 dumb fire the missiles at a location ahead of the enemy mech and the shockwave would knock them down.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

No, your opinion of MW4 game balance is abysmal. If we copied and pasted the ECM/BAP and SSRM/LRM mechanics over to MWO, it would be 10000x's improved.

There were three major ranked leagues in MW3. MW4 released and within a year ranked play was abandoned. If MWO had MW4s mechanics no one would take it seriously and the game would probably die. Putting it another way there's a reason it's been almost a decade for a new MW game to come out.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with hard counters. Its just that ECM is a hard counter to too many things. Where in your example... 1 thing was a counter for only 1 other thing... rather than many things. If it was, then only that thing would ever be played, just like here... only ECM mechs are used in premades that want to win.

ECM is a hard counter for lock on missiles. You can in fact still shoot the mech to - that would be a counter.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Long range fights are more common now because of the new maps. People are bringing more range weaponry because of those maps. Take away alpine and toumaline... and nothing will have changed.
Yes, you need to take the game as a whole, not just the solo play aspect of it. ECM affects solo pug play and 8man premades in entirely different ways. In solo play the occasional ECM is merely a small annoyance.(because there is no coordination it makes no difference.) In 8 man premades ECM is the dominating factor in every match.(because ECM nerfs coordination and 8man teams rely on coordination, and therefore they hate ECM.)

I've said that ECM is broken in 8 mans - but not because of ECM itself but the fact that the meta game in 8 mans is totally broken. There needs to be weight/class restrictions or people will simply bring the most powerful combination they can.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 04 April 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Allen Ward]

considering an offensive weapon like PPC a ECCM tool is just silly. PPC doesnt do any good below 90m, 4s is nothing unless a teammate lands a lucky shot on the fleeing light mech in that short time frame. a lasting effect like a shutdown would be better....after all sytems get EMPed, they won't recover to normal in 4s. maybe in 10s...

but PGI love their OP ECM and they won't let it go.

[Teralitha]

Kristov Kerensky, on 04 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

What Teralitha is trying to say here is..'I was a GOD in MW4 and now I'm a peon and that's so messed up it's not funny, turn MWO into MW4 NOW because it sucks because I can't be a GOD again in an unbalanced PoS game!'.

Pretty sure that's what was meant, it does seem to be a recurrent theme with his posts.

I've never had a problem with how PGI implemented ECM, but I also haven't had a problem hitting my targets either, with the exception of the Raven hitbox issues and the general netcode issues with fast moving targets, one of which has been fixed and the other has been mostly fixed. I also didn't have any problems using LRMs against ECM targets, but I also know how to use TAG or just plain dumbfire my LRMs without a lock. I don't use Streaks, so maybe that's the real problem?

Can't dumbfire Streaks in the first place, seen people claim that was due to ECM..no, it's due to them being Streaks, no lock no firing allowed. And so many people have abused the hell out of Streaks due to the multiple bugs related to them. Most of which have been fixed now, making them..well..less then what they were. My Spider takes Raven 3Ls apart now, as it should have doing all along as I can aim and they can't, which is clearly shown by the fact that every single time I enage a Raven 3L, they NEVER fire their lasers..even if I'm in a Stalker, they only use the Streaks...why is that? Could it be...unskilled players who can't hit the side of a Stalker at 20m relying on a broken weapon system like Streaks? NAH!

Funny how few 3Ls are in the field any more..and how quickly they die....

What are you smoking? I want some too. I am an exceptional pilot in this game too. My natural skills didnt suddenly disappear because I post on the forums and disagree with how the game is unbalanced..

[Zphyr]

I like ECM, even when it seriously affect my gameplay (whenever I use streaks or LRM, yeah still have them). Personally, I find it somewhat in the place I expect it to be... I never actively tried to shoot them down and my 3L is not exactly slot hungry, so it should not affect me having them in a fixed part. But being able to still see our own teammates? For me, that's awesome. And honestly enough to make me happy.

Am I satisfied with their proposal? Yes.
Will I, when it's online? Who knows, will see.

[TruePoindexter]

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

I said an LRM specialized team, as per your previous comments. And yes, people driving raven 3L's do it all the time, when there is cover to hide your thermal signature and he enemy happens to be distracted by your other team mates. They charge in and brawl, and disrupt the enemy's radar, while their own team rushes in and focuses them down. The enemy cannot focus as their radar is being disrupted. Light mechs with ECM brawl all the time. I mean... their most effective builds are all short range, so naturally they brawl.

An LRM specialized team is different from a team taking only LRM's. As for Raven's charging in and brawling - that was because they could survive as long as an Assault thanks to the difficulties in hitting them for most people. That's not the case anymore.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

So you agree the meta game in 8 man is broken, due to ECM. Thank you.

Broken due to lack of a weight/class restriction - not ECM. ECM is the symptom there not the cause. If there was no ECM you would simply see Raven's replaced with Jenners.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I get concerned when I see statements like this because it appears to be based in a game where Lasers/PPCs/AC's/Gauss do not exist. Yes you don't have to worry about LRM's while manuvering - only you have to worry about getting shot in the face still. Also you in fact still do have to worry about LRM's as ECM can be countered through specific means. The only reason why LRM's are scarce right now is because of their poor performance. Even during the height of the ECM craze there were numerous LRM boats on the field.

At long ranges PPCs, Gausses, and Autocannon’s are less of a thread because they do diminished damage and it is much more difficult to hit a moving target with those weapons, while LRMs are guided and don’t even require direct line of sight. This means that a teams first line of defense against an advancing team are LRMs.

How often do you see tunnel rushes now, compared to before ECM. I see them a lot less because they are unnecessary. Previously teams would use the tunnels as a way to avoid heavy LRM for or move undetected. ECM has removed the need for that optional tactic. Simply advance directly at the enemy knowing they cannot coordinate fire, and cannot defend themselves at long range.

Quote

Well we already have a C3 Network for free - mechs share their targets by default. I'm not sure what the Command Console will do that taking command via the battle grid doesn't already offer.

By command console I actually meant Battlegrid, but I suspect the actual command console will expand on that functionality. Have you ever used (or attempted to use) either of these tools? They are in a deplorable state, and even if you connect via C3, there is no guarantee your allies will. And the Battlegrid takes you out of combat, doesn’t allow you to select a primary target, doesn’t not display information in a readable fashion (and for doesn’t work half the time). Basically what I am saying is those tools require a lot of effort from players for very little gain. While ECM requires no effort for a massive benefit to your whole team.

Quote

I would argue that it allows ECM teams to wreck non-ECM teams who do not coordinate.

Two teams of equal skill level, communication, and coordination. The ECM team has a distinct and overwhelming advantage. That doesn’t mean a non ECM team cannot beat an ECM team, it just means that the ECM team has an edge, and will win more often. What other piece of equipment in the game offers that kind of advantage? AMS? EndoSteel? Gauss Rifle?
I’ll tell you, there is only one other piece of technology in MWO that offers the same overwhelming advantage: Double Heatsinks. ECM is to non-ecm as double heat sinks are single heat sinks.

Quote

Missiles in general are quite poor right now. In the past though when ECM was first rolled out though SSRM's struck multiple locations and were definitely an overwhelming force for lights. Even to this day I would argue that even a well played light could still not hold up against SSRM boating.

Are you suggesting that a light mech should be able to be defeat a mech designed specifically to defeat light mechs? Because it sounds like you are. I don’t take my LRM mechs into the tunnels, light mechs should not beat SSRM boats, it is a rock-paper-scissors thing.

Quote

Please explain how being able to not be detected has made scouting worse.
Please explain how ECM's existence forces scouts to no longer act as decoys.

ECM has made scouting worse because enemy ECM prevents you from relaying targeting information to your team, so scouts either simply charge into the middle of the enemy (where they are close enough to target) and rely on their ECM to protect them. Or they don’t scout at all.
Where as previously A good scout could actually scout, it would get just close enough to target the enemy (1000m?) so their team could get a reliable mech information, including a callsign (alpha, bravo, Charlie, ect) and loadout. Sure they had to contend with LRMs, and the skirmish mech, but that was part of the scouts cat & mouse game.

ECM has ruined decoys because no one wants to chase an ECM mech. They are hard to track because they disappear from radar, and the best anti-light mech weapon (SSRM) doesn’t even work against them. And at close range most mechs are at a disadvantage against the faster, more agile light mechs, so why would you chase one, especially if they are running away from you.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 04 April 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

There were three major ranked leagues in MW3. MW4 released and within a year ranked play was abandoned. If MWO had MW4s mechanics no one would take it seriously and the game would probably die. Putting it another way there's a reason it's been almost a decade for a new MW game to come out.

Except there were ranked leagues throughout MW4, especially after Mercs was released. I'd almost say these grew in size after Mektek began releasing the Mekpaks.
NBT has been around since the days of MW2 I believe, and they were biggest for 4. MW4 also sold really well, I wanna say it surpassed MW3 and all its expansions in sales (can't remember the exact metric, been a while since I saw the breakdown). MW4 lasted well beyond its years, way longer than most thought it should've, so saying that MW4 and its mechanics are what killed the franchise is extremely lawl worthy and have no bearing on this argument.

[Teralitha]

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

If that is the case the 8 man's I've been in want to have a word with you. LRM's are rare because LRM's are bag right now. When LRM's are viable again they will once again be quite common.


The MW4 mechanic was terrible. You acquired a lock and if your crosshair was on the target the missiles would home on that area. If not the lock would guide the missiles there but some would miss. A good mechanic was in MW3 where you could vector the direction of the missiles to fire them at a specfic angle but at the same time a mech moving at least 84kph could change direction timed correctly and dodge the missiles. You could also in MW3 dumb fire the missiles at a location ahead of the enemy mech and the shockwave would knock them down.


There were three major ranked leagues in MW3. MW4 released and within a year ranked play was abandoned. If MWO had MW4s mechanics no one would take it seriously and the game would probably die. Putting it another way there's a reason it's been almost a decade for a new MW game to come out.

* yes... because it wouldnt have been profitable. Games were shifting to console* ie mechassault


ECM is a hard counter for lock on missiles. You can in fact still shoot the mech to - that would be a counter.


I've said that ECM is broken in 8 mans - but not because of ECM itself but the fact that the meta game in 8 mans is totaly broken. There need to be weight/class restrictions or people will simply bring the most powerful combination they can.

I played in MW4 leagues for several years... League play didnt disappear just because everyone in MW3 leagues left. They moved on to MW4 instead beause it was better.

So you dont like MW4 missle mechanics, thats fine, but it would still be an improvement to MWO. I would take MW3 missle mechanics also over what we have. MWO missles take no skill, anything that does take some skill would be better, whether its MW3, or 4.

I agree, 8 mans definitely need a tonnage limit. And if MWO doesnt ever do it, then 8 man teams themselves will create their own ruleset and leagues using the upcoming pregame lobby.

[Oppresor]

It shouldn't matter too much, I understand why its being fitted in a similar way to AMS, because in a way it performs a similar role. ECM has never worked in the way that I have understood that ECM works for real; that is to jam or at least give false targeting information to guided missile systems (See BAT 21, the film gives a really good insight into how it should work).

I would use ECM exclusively on my Recon units so it's not important to me that they should be able to shield a group. My Recons are totally lone wolf with little or no offensive capability; their primary role is to stay alive and relay target information to the Assaults in my lance. Their secondary role is to CAP targets of opportunity.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

What are you smoking? I want some too. I am an exceptional pilot in this game too. My natural skills didnt suddenly disappear because I post on the forums and disagree with how the game is unbalanced..

Your observations on balance are somewhat..suspect, since you seem to consider MW4 to have been an excellent and well balanced game. ECM seems to cause you no end of problems in MWO, which if you were such an exceptionally skilled pilot wouldn't be the case, as it doesn't bother the rest of us who are moderately skilled pilots.

re: MW4 and what it did to the franchise...how in any way can you say it was so great and did so well? It literally killed the franchise, it was the last MW PC title to be made and it didn't make anywhere near the money it should have. It DID sell better then MW3...but that's it, it didn't do as well as MW2, which really says it all.

[Josef Nader]

The ECM/Streak synergy still hasn't been addressed, and that's the main problem I have with it. It's overpowering in light v light fights.

So no, I'm a little upset that hasn't been dealt with.

[oldradagast]

My only complaint is that ECM should not grant stealth. I'm fine with everything else, but a 100-ton assault mech should not be able to vanish from radar by activating ECM. Stealth technology is not equal to ECM - if anything, putting out a complex set of EM signals to jam or confuse sensors doesn't mean nobody can see the source of the EM radiation. Not only is ECM acting as stealth highly questionable from a technical viewpoint, it is annoying when entire teams appear out of nowhere thanks to the "cloaking" granted by a DDC Atlas (or anything else, but it just seems the most absurd on a huge Atlas.) The fact that entire teams will drop everything to follow a DDC Atlas like ducklings following their mom proves just how over the top ECM is as long as it acts as stealth technology.

A compromise = let ECM obscure the weapon loadout of the mech carrying the ECM, but that's the limit of the "stealth." Keep the rest of the features, IMHO.

Note that I have never played a Light Mech or gotten into an ECM + Streak fight, but I suspect that mechanic is broken, too, based on the other posts here.

Edited by oldradagast, 04 April 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[protoKol]

i think ECM needs to be moved from the "best variants" of the mech to the "crappier ones"

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 04 April 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

re: MW4 and what it did to the franchise...how in any way can you say it was so great and did so well? It literally killed the franchise, it was the last MW PC title to be made and it didn't make anywhere near the money it should have. It DID sell better then MW3...but that's it, it didn't do as well as MW2, which really says it all.

lol.......just, lol
Correlation does not equal causation.

Just because it was the last title in the series does not mean it killed the series. There were several factors in the decision to cancel MW5 (it was in a very early alpha stage when it was cancelled) and none of them had to do with the gameplay of MW4. It also did financially well for what it was, and when it came out (PC Simulation Shooter was and still is a niche genre). Was it Warcraft 3 or Starcraft 2, no, but it still did well all things considered.

[Kristov Kerensky]

majora incarnate, on 04 April 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

lol.......just, lol
Correlation does not equal causation.

Just because it was the last title in the series does not mean it killed the series. There were several factors in the decision to cancel MW5 (it was in a very early alpha stage when it was cancelled) and none of them had to do with the gameplay of MW4. It also did financially well for what it was, and when it came out (PC Simulation Shooter was and still is a niche genre). Was it Warcraft 3 or Starcraft 2, no, but it still did well all things considered.

It didn't do well on the market at all, fact, which is why MS canned it, sold more then MW3 but only about half of what MW2 sold, which was sold at a time when online gaming was barely in it's infancy. MW4 on the other hand was during the heyday of online gaming, when people were winning hundreds of thousands of dollars and more in online gaming tourney...something MS tried to do with MW4 and had dismal results with.

MW5 in alpha...what? MW5 was never in ANY development state, it was something PGI tried to get MS to let them do in 2009...they had a video they made WITHOUT a game engine of any sort and MS said..no, as the MW titles didn't make enough profits for MS to be viable, on the PC OR on the console. Try some facts and reality instead of your dreams and guesses next time. MW5 in alpha...funny...bet you thought that video was really done with a working game engine too didn't you?

[von Pilsner]

Poorly worded poll, I am satisfied with their answer but it was not the answer I wanted to hear.