313 replies to this topic

[Valaska]

CutterWolf, on 08 April 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

RIght now ECM is working correctly, (i.e. it blocks all IFF signatures under its bubble) which "is" what ECM is suppose to do. They want to change it so now like "magic" ECM does not do what its suppose to do and that's to let you see those jammed IFF signatures at "all" times even when its under an enemy's IFF bubble. You know, you called up the bad guys before the battle and told them the signal type and frequency your IFF transmits on so they could make sure they would not be blocking it for you. Sure was nice of the enemy to do that don't you think?

Here is the quote from Paul: " ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play."

You're new here, aren't you? Canon wise, no, no it doesn't block IFF. It didn't block anything like that actually! It was used to hamper advanced targeting effects, and had multiple counters. They're not doing it canon wise, and they sure as HELL are not doing what the majority of their player base wants, or wanted, back in the day this would have been 70% no in a few hours, used to see about 1500 people voting in polls, now this? This is all YOUR community has left in it? Wow.

[Taemien]

I'm actually glad PGI isn't doing what the so called forum 'majority' wants. Forum Majority is another name for Vocal Minority. When there is a legitimate issue with a component, they look at it, and don't fix it based on what everyone wants, but fix it based on what is causing the problem.

If they nerfed ECM, light mechs would still be near invincible, SSRMs would still do 15-25 damage each. and ECM itself would be useless. Which is what all of you who played Jenners and Commandos want. But would not do this game any good.

Instead they tackle the problem that they know is causing the issue. And yes they know more then we do because unlike other game developers, they code and play the game. They have access to diagnostic tools that we don't. We can find an issue, they can find the cause from there. Thats how a Beta Test works. They also know when someone is complaining about something is due to a lack of skill and not a bug or imbalance. Which is a majority of issues you see pop up.

Personally I'm happy with the changes. They offer a skill based solution to countering ECM. Destroying it by location, or by destroying the mech it is mounted on. Of course the vocal minority will be against this, they don't have the skill necessary to do one of those two things. Unfortunately for them, skill is earned, not coded in after whining to a Dev.

Fortunately for me and the silent majority, the Devs agree with this. The bluffs have been called, the whiners will not quit, they're still here, months after ECM's arrival. Now the ice cream cone has been smacked out of their hand, we'll see if they are bluffing. If they continue to post, we'll know that they are just full of hot air. If you are one of these people who 'say' they will leave over this, say nothing more and simply do as you say you will. I bet you won't. You know PGI is sticking to what they've put in the game, lets see you stick to your principles. I'm calling your bluff one more time.

[DocBach]

Hey guy, ECM can be changed to be useful without being incredibly overreaching.

I'm glad you are a proponent of skill based counters for passive systems that require no skills to employ.

Sounds completely balanced -- passive system that affects several systems and completely blocks some, requires active, skill based system to defeat that some 'Mechs who use the completely blocked weapon system can't carry. Yep, sounds like a great model the more I think about it.

[Kristov Kerensky]

majora incarnate, on 04 April 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

MW5 was in alpha (let me make this clear, Im not talking about the 2009 teaser crap, Im talking 2002-03), there is concept art and screenshots that have floated the forums and internet once or twice, as well as an official announcement (which means they had at least begun development) for way back before FASA even collapsed, it was cancelled shortly after its announcement unfortunately though. MW4 also did sell fairly well, I wanna say Vengeance sold at least over 400,000 units, which back in that day, and considering the niche market, certainly wasn't bad (if the given metric is right, would find source if I could). At that same time, Microsoft wanted to focus on their newly released X-Box so they diverted FASA to make a game oriented towards the X-Box instead.

The gameplay still had nothing to do with its cancellation and subsequent death as a genre (Space Flight Sims suffered similar issues).

MW5 by FASA Interactive never got into the alpha stages, FI WANTED to make the game, they did concept art and a little vid to sell the concept, but the sales for MW4 and all it's addons weren't that great..MW4:V sold 400k unit you say...it was more then that actually, since MW4:V is actually the main release. All told a little over 4 million of the MW4 titles were sold, which includes the expansions/addons. Compared to MW2 which sold over 7 million units, I think it's pretty clear why MS cancelled MW5 before it got into alpha, they weren't making enough profit off MW4 to justify another PC title, especially when you add in the extra costs of the Zone, no, MS lost money on that project and it would be years, almost 10 to be exact, before MS would see the potential for profit in another MW PC title. Another little fact that helped MS kill MW5 before it got into alpha..threats of lawsuits by HG due to some of that concept art for MW5 showing Unseen..even MS doesn't want to dance that little dance with HG, no sane person does after HG's record concerning this subject.

As to ECM itself, it's fine. It keeps ONE, exactly 1, weapon system from functioning, Streak SRMs, that's it. It does NOT keep LRMs from working, it simply keeps them from getting a lock. Little trick to LRMs, they can be dumbfired just fine and still hit a target and do damage. So if you don't use SSRMs, ECM is just an annoyance, an intel denial tool that functions in that regards just fine, but that's ALL it is.

[BlackWidow]

I personally LOATHED ecm. Well, it took *weeks* but I finally pulled up my big girl panties and started playing a CMD-2D. I learned that COUNTER is easily as powerful and DISRUPT for allowing my teammates to lay waste to the D-DC and 3L.
( love hiding behind a D-DC and doing nothing but countering his ECM and watching him die immediately)

I do believe, though, that PGI went far beyond the TT version of ECM. But, I also trust them to continually parse the numbers and balance as needed. If ECM were to disappear, it would become LRM warrior all over again.

So, let's all sit back with mead (or beverage of choice) and see how the proposed changes play out. In the mean time, there are ways to counter ECM.

1. Take and ECM mech
2. Take a mech with at least 1 PPC and have at 'em.
3. Use some of the modules such as Adv. Sensor Range and learn to play with distances ( I have been more successful with this as of late)
4. Energy / Ballistic weapons to take out legs or ECM component.
5. And in all honesty, no matter what PGI thinks about 3rd party voice comms, C3 needs to be fixed to auto join PUGS. Coordinated voice game play has no equal.

Edited by BlackWidow, 08 April 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[Garth Erlam]

Where does it say there are no upcoming changes other than the two community suggested ones?

[hammerreborn]

Garth Erlam, on 08 April 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Where does it say there are no upcoming changes other than the two community suggested ones?

It's in the fine print Garth!!, along with the next 4 counters being paid for abilities only as consumables that cost 200 MC per use that only lasts for 10 seconds. And Raven hero mechs, and such as...

[Kristov Kerensky]

Garth Erlam, on 08 April 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Where does it say there are no upcoming changes other than the two community suggested ones?

Well...you see...since the actual post concerning the subject doesn't mention any SPECIFIC changes but the 2 community suggested changes, it's obvious that PGI will be doing nothing to ECM!

After all, as you can clearly see PGI has totally ignored all the doomsayers about ECM for all this time now, you know, the forum experts who've never designed a game and only see their own personal opinion as being the only thing needed to make an instant hit critically acclaimed money making game! These people can't be wrong can they, after all, their opinions are always right....right? I mean, they use those great games like MW4 and MWLL as their examples, and we all know how great those games were right....right? So, they must be right...right?

[BlackWidow]

Garth Erlam, on 08 April 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Where does it say there are no upcoming changes other than the two community suggested ones?

Maybe those changes are UNSEEN and therefore we haven't got our hopes up?

[FrostCollar]

Well, it's never explicitly stated, but

"these aspects combined with the actual ECM counters (PPC/Advanced Sensor Range) implemented put ECM VERY close to where we want it to be; a very frightful piece of equipment that is powerful and versitle while at the same time has its weaknesses (3 health and soon to be hardpoint limited, see below)"

does seem pretty uncompromising. When I read that something is "VERY" close to where the devs want it, I don't expect further unlisted changes. Anything is possible, but in the realm of probabilities that outcome seems unlikely.

[AlexEss]

ECM is ok in my book.

ECM + Streaks still have some slight issues,

[Genewen]

If "satisfied" means that I had a good laugh at what they consider balanced, then yes, I was very satisfied. If satisfied means that their ideas of balance match mine and that I consider their thoughts anywhere near close to reality, then no, I am not satisfied.

I thought that you might mean the latter one, so I voted "No".
If any piece of equipment is an automatic choice for a mech model without even the least doubt, that piece of equipment is not balanced.

Edited by Genewen, 08 April 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[CutterWolf]

Valaska, on 08 April 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

You're new here, aren't you? Canon wise, no, no it doesn't block IFF. It didn't block anything like that actually! It was used to hamper advanced targeting effects, and had multiple counters. They're not doing it canon wise, and they sure as HELL are not doing what the majority of their player base wants, or wanted, back in the day this would have been 70% no in a few hours, used to see about 1500 people voting in polls, now this? This is all YOUR community has left in it? Wow.

LOL! New? You mite want to read up on "how" a targeting system works. Do you think it can just tell enemy and friendly targets just by looking at them or is it magic? It ID's enemy targets from IFF signatures, those that don't match friendly signatures get marked as enemy other wise your targeting system would target every mech on the battle field friend or foe and mark them all as enemy. If you have a clue of what your talking about you would of known this but you don't. This is why "per canon" that it blocks targeting and other tracking systems, and why can it do this?? "Simple IFF signatures" You know what the biggest counter to ECM is? LOS, why because you can't fool your eyes and you can manually target and shoot anything you put you crosshair on.

Here read it:

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor. Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

Edited by CutterWolf, 08 April 2013 - 07:47 PM.

[DocBach]

Per cannon, it doesn't block targeting or other tracking systems.

Page 134, Total Warfare:

"The ECM suite does not affect other
scanning and targeting devices"

[CutterWolf]

DocBach, on 08 April 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

Per cannon, it doesn't block targeting or other tracking systems.

Page 134, Total Warfare:

"The ECM suite does not affect other
scanning and targeting devices"

Really?

Here read this:


Description

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony
Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor. Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

The one thing that the ECM in MWO is not doing is, allowing LRM/SRMs and SSRMs to be "not be" effected by it as stated above. This is where MWO/PGI took it too far and gave it the same features and Stealth Armor, Null signature, Angle ECM and Guardian ECM all wrapped up into one. As you can see below:

Description

The Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield.

Overview

Stealth Armor:
The finest achievement in stealth systems developed by the original Star League, the Null Signature System was capable of shielding a BattleMech from electronic detection. Unfortunately like many pieces of advanced technology, the system and the 'Mechs that carried it became LosTech during the maelstrom of the early Succession Wars. All Successor States attempted to recover and rediscovery the technology, but the Capellan Confederation is the closest to recreating the system.
Discovering detailed information on the system in the archives of the reactivated Star League era Shengli Arms factory, while not yet able to produce a bolt for bolt, circuit for circuit replication, with typical Capellan ingenuity House Liao developed a stop-gap solution suitable for mass-production. Integrating the heat baffles and required components directly into specially designed armor plating, when linked with a Guardian ECM Suite Stealth Armor replicates the benefits (and disadvantages) of the Null Signature System. Though bulkier than the Null Signature System that inspired it, Stealth Armor is still less bulky than Ferro-Fibrous Armor.
By 3071, schematics for the armor had been stolen by the Federated Suns. By 3075, the armor was also being manufactured by the Lyran Alliance, and possibly other powers as well.
The Guardian ECM Suite mounted on the unit functions normally regardless of the Stealth Armor's activation status.

Description

Null Signature:
First appearing on the SLDF's EXT-4D Exterminator and the later Spector, while the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield masked their visual presence, the Null Signature System cloaked their heat output and electronic emissions. While the system is engaged, the 'Mech is more difficult to track at anything other than short range, with the Beagle Active Probe and its unbranded Clan equivalent unable to locate a hidden unit with its null signature system engaged. Only the modern and experimental Bloodhound Active Probe can penetrate the null signature masking.
Like many pieces of advanced technology, the Null Signature System and the 'Mechs that carried it became LosTech during the malestrom of the early Succession Wars. Outside of the Word of Blake, all modern examples of the Null Signature System in the Inner Sphere are either experimental prototypes such as that carried by the Werewolf or exceedingly rare surviving examples from the original Star League, with the Capellan Confederation the Successor State closest to recreating the system. While not yet able to produce a bolt for bolt, circuit for circuit replication, with typical Capellan ingenuity House Liao has developed a stop-gap solution suitable for mass-production, the so-called Stealth Armor. Integrating the heat baffles and required components directly into specially designed armor plating, when linked with a Guardian ECM Suite Stealth Armor replicates its benefits (and disadvantages).
While the Clans retained the peak of the Terran Hegemony's military technology, the tenets of Clan honor find such stealth systems dishonorable and ceased research and production of the Null Signature System.

Edited by CutterWolf, 08 April 2013 - 08:07 PM.

[DocBach]

CutterWolf, on 08 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Here read it:

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor. Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

Oh, you mean the abridged Sarna entry which is an amalgamation of several sources but not complete excerpts to avoid copyright violation? Here's the original source from which the Sarna description is based from, unedited:

"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR and magscan sensors. This signal projects a "cloak to a radius of 180 meters, protecting all units within the circle.
Enemy long range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading, preventing identification. By the time the enemy gets within visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but most pilots rely on their own eyes." Technical Readout 2750, page 92 (the very first publication featuring Guardian ECM)

The expanded Double Blind rules in Tactical Operations goes in to detail that sensor spotting and tracking is unaffected by Guardian, though sensors cannot identify variant type, weapons, or damage of a 'Mech protected by ECM. ECM does not affect spotting and tracking unless the spotting 'Mech is within the ECM radius. MechWarrior Online has this backwards; we can't target at long ranges but we can target at 200 meters.

Edited by DocBach, 08 April 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

DocBach, on 08 April 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Oh, you mean the abridged Sarna entry which is an amalgamation of several sources but not complete excerpts to avoid copyright violation? Here's the original source from which the Sarna description is based from, unedited:

"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR and magscan sensors. This signal projects a "cloak to a radius of 180 meters, protecting all units within the circle.
Enemy long range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading, preventing identification. By the time the enemy gets within visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but most pilots rely on their own eyes." Technical Readout 2750, page 92 (the very first publication featuring Guardian ECM)

The expanded Double Blind rules in Tactical Operations goes in to detail that sensor spotting and tracking is unaffected by Guardian, though sensors cannot identify variant type, weapons, or damage of a 'Mech protected by ECM. ECM does not affect spotting and tracking unless the spotting 'Mech is within the ECM radius. MechWarrior Online has this backwards; we can't target at long ranges but we can target at 200 meters.

Yes, you can clearly see the expertise of the writers at FASA back in the day, ECM only works when you are real close to it, as opposed to how it works in the real world, where it works miles and miles out....

So PGI made ECM in the game work more in line with reality instead of the silly way FASA originally had it work, and I don't have a problem with that.

[Kaijin]

Bluten, on 04 April 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Half the forum hit YES. I guess it's now proven fact that half the forum is stupid. I already suspected that, but now it's proven.

There'd be more 'NO's, if PIG hadn't driven off most of the playerbase they had before they ruined the game with their Jesus-Box ECM. I stuck around for a while, but it's hopeless. I've never regretted an investment more than the time, energy and dollars I put into MWO.

[DrSmurfy]

In the real world... Its a bubble, anything in that bubble is safe. The game mechanics work amazingly well when it is just that! I feel its more liable or productive to now have a ppc in your team to nerf it one and free up targets!

I believe it to be more true to have a bubble, maybe reduce the bubble?! It works! I realise that this isn't a real world thing.

Why fix something that isn't broken?

[Glythe]

A fixed location on the mech is stupid for AMS AND ECM as it limits customization.

At least they realized that friendly mechs should always be identified.... it is too much of an advantage for the team to not know an ally is being attacked (other than his marker vanishing).

ECM should only function to block targeting within its deadzone radius. That is what it is was designed to do and is too strong as a 1.5 ton module.