61 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

LT Kinslayer, on 04 April 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

I voted no, because then they will be forced to change ammo per ton values for all weapons as well.
I want ballistics to stay thank you.

Sustained damage becomes less valuable, simply because it will take even longer than it does now to take an enemy down. So this will actually increase, not decrease, the need for high alpha coordination. You may live a few seconds longer but you will still not have a chance, unless you get better. Dying from simple mistakes is the best way to learn not to make said mistakes.

PS: I also want SRM's and LRM's fixed so missles are valuable again
Game will be WAY too boring if there is only energy weapons around, even though I prefer them myself.


edited for borked initial layout

I doubt we need an ammo increase. I rarely ever use half my ammo anymore now that netcoding has been improved.

[That Guy]

A mech is never vulnerable, it dies precisely when it means too.

[orion33]

Roadbuster, on 04 April 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Destroying internals/weapons/ammo does not make a big difference atm, because you could also destroy the whole body part with the next 1-2 shots.
Increasing the hitpoints of internals and adjusting weapon hitpoints would make a fight more tactical.
Increase internal hitpoints the more a mech weights and keep it close to the current level for light mechs so they stay as frail as they should be.

I also agree with the OP.
It's true that fights are rather short.
And low damage numbers indicating better accuracy or more headshots don't change that fact.

Awesome idea! I think it would be more interesting to fight longer, but with several internal errors or malfunctions, after some strong hits than getting down after 1 or 2 shots on the damaged area.

[LordBraxton]

Ive been playin a gauss\ppc highlander poptart exclusively

On maps like alpine I feel like Im playing MW4 again, because thats the exact mech I played in Mercs... Highlander poptart with gauss\ppc....

[wirikidor]

I just took at STK-5S for a spin for the first time this morning, and in my 3rd game I got hit 2 times and died... before I did any damage... in an assault... It said it was a gauss rifle and an ER Large Laser that hit me. My armor is 480... I'm still scratching my head. Oh yeah, and my entire team got rolled.

[RainbowToh]

Drenzul, on 04 April 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Problem here is more the high heat capacity vs low heat dissipation which makes these high alpha builds viable. A good 4 man with 2-4 high alpha builds can fairly easily one-shot a Atlas, which is wrong. 6 PPCs or similar heat builds should pretty much be shut-down after a single shot.

Well 6 PPCs or similiar builds do shut down after one shot.

[wirikidor]

RainbowToh, on 04 April 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Well 6 PPCs or similiar builds do shut down after one shot.

"Shut down" from heat, or shut down as in die?

I was dead before I even got off a shot.

[RainbowToh]

wirikidor, on 04 April 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

"Shut down" from heat, or shut down as in die?

I was dead before I even got off a shot.

Dude i was replying to someone else.

Anw in response to your post, I would think half the team alphaed at u in one shot or i believe, in that one 'moment', which makes u feel it is one shot. But usually it is a whole bunch of ppl shooting at u. Yes I have been through it before. Took it in my face before as well.

[tenderloving]

The mechs aren't any more vulnerable, but there are several things driving down total damage dealt/mech longevity.

1. A horribly conceived ECM with no direct counters, and recent nerfs to LRMs have reduced indirect fire damage substantially.
2. A horribly conceived hardpoint system is allowing pinpoint-alpha builds that would not be possible under a balanced system.
3. A horribly conceived heat management system " "
4. High alpha and direct damage do not give players enough time to twist or expose different parts of their armor to fire.

These things are driving down the total effective damage output per mech death.

Essentially, as was noted and ignored many times in closed beta, we are incredibly efficient at cutting out interesting gameplay in the name of reliably beating our opponents. It's the developers' job to plan for this mentality and incorporate designs that engage this behavior in interesting ways. So far they have failed.

Edited by tenderloving, 04 April 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Khanublikhan]

Myself, I believe the issue is not simply high alpha damage - but rather high alpha + high alpha from the same mech. i.e high damage is being done repeatedly in too short a time frame. Some ideas to combat this would be:-

• Recharge penalties for weapons with excessively high heat (slowing the time between volleys).
  
• Movement penalties for a mech with high heat (slowing the mech, offering an escape opportunity for an enemy close to cover).
  
• A buff to flamers. Flamers doing (stackable) +20% recharge time damage to weapons by hit location flamed. This would make flamers a soft-defence weapon.

In short, I would argue combat needs to be slowed down (a little, not too much) with alpha strikes effectively jamming weapons above a certain heat point (above and beyond alpha, shutdown, restart, current weapon recharge times).

Edited by Khanublikhan, 04 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Gruse]

Here is was PGI should consider do.
They need to incorporate the MW4 Critical Slots. Where you can't put a weapon that has more Critical slot locations than from what the mech can hold. This will stop all the Alpha/boat mechs. but the problem is people will not like that because they feel restricted in weapons, but they will need to deal. I am tired of seeing mechs will a all around loadout being butchered will PPC only Stalkers or AC20 Jagermechs.

Introduce Tac Op rules. Where When you blow up a mech, if you hit the location,Ammo explosions cause damage to mechs in the area, decreasing the further away you are, and when cored, make engine explosions do damage also in an area(PGI can balance these out). What this does is gets rid of the Splat cats and with the MW4 style critical slots, get rid of these boating capable mechs.

all these balances cause longer matches and appropriate damage based on the weapon to each mech class.

Edited by Gruse, 04 April 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[Drenzul]

RainbowToh, on 04 April 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Well 6 PPCs or similiar builds do shut down after one shot.

Nope, they don't, which is the problem. First volley puts them on about 70% heat from zero, 2nd will shut them down.
Unfortunately the 2nd one is enough to kill you if it hits the same spot!

[Mister Blastman]

Get rid of torso convergence or make it fixed at a set range and you eliminate A LOT of the sniping problems...

I lobbied PGI for this last summer in closed beta. They never did it. If they had the game would be drastically different (and more fun) now.

[PropagandaWar]

orion33, on 04 April 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

You are right, but improved durability of a mech forces the alpha build to hit more often... so in the end heat becomes a problem. Actually 2 6x PPC alphas can core you. Thats exactly what you are able to fire with a Stalker without having heat problems. So if this Stalker have to shoot twice as much alphas (4x) to get the same result, the time needed for this will increase like 3x/4x due to heat dissipation.

If it takes longer for a alpha to kill a mech it'll take longer for an non alpha mech to do the same so that makes no sense. Best way to kill most boats is A) dont sit still and close in on em. I dont get alphad consistantly in my hunchback. When I do yeah it can hurt but if your constantly getting blasted something else is wrong.

Mister Blastman, on 04 April 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Get rid of torso convergence or make it fixed at a set range and you eliminate A LOT of the sniping problems...

I lobbied PGI for this last summer in closed beta. They never did it. If they had the game would be drastically different (and more fun) now.

i've broght this up. Torso weapons should be fixed.

[Tice Daurus]

I think the main thing is that you have to understand that matches in TT lasted LONGER because the shots were randomized and it was luck that determined if you got in lucky shots for concentrated fire in the same location. Here is all skill/twitch shooter based. If you have good aim, an assault could go down to a light with ease if you focus the cockpit for the quick kill.

I see nothing wrong with the way the system is now. It rewards players with good aim as a skill. If you are a good shot and you know your weapons and how they work, you will become an elite player. If your aim sucks, you'll be fishbait.

[ferranis]

The average damage has gone down because of elo: everyone pulls their own weight and the aiming and overall skill is way better.

But you cant compare single mechs running in a enemy group with an even fight where all engange at the same time - then mechs last pretty long if used correctly.

[Kitane]

It takes around 100 damage to kill an average heavy mech through its best armored part.

100 damage.

That's 3-4 accurate strikes from most mechs. Add a bit of focused fire from two mechs and the target gets cored or crippled almost instantly.

I am not saying if it is good enough or not, but it does seem to limit matches between skilled coordinated players to ranged alpha striking builds.

[RainbowToh]

It is not about the hardpoints it is not about the alphastrike. It is about how we aim. Remove mouse pinpoint aim and introduce an alternative, which others have talked about, cone of fire or separate convergence etc. Otherwise we shouldnt even discuss about heat, weapon damage, armor etc until we talked about mouse pinpoint aim or alternatives to that. But so far there hasnt been a solid push from a large majority from the community about having an alternative to mouse pinpoint aim, thus PGI simply kept the status quo on that issue.

[SilverMalachite]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Money sink (because matches last longer)
- Alpha-/OP Builds become weaker and less dangerous
- This leads to a better balance
- Alternative builds become more interesting and competetive.
- New players have more chances to realize what they did wrong instead of dying almost instantly without having a clue what was going on)

This is not a whining thread, it's only about having no fun to stomp or being stomped (not that often ) in less than 60 seconds and about missing the feeling that we are sitting in heavy war machines and not in a plastic-robot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to mechs being to vulnerable post.

What your talking about is.

Taking combat influence from Mechwarrior warfare

• Energy weapons e,g PPC do not require ammo & never have, Just governed by heat eff.
  
• I have had plenty of battles where teamwork has prevailed over hero acts of suicide, Resulting in your remark of only having lights being left & being hunted.
  
• THIS IS A GAME... Yes, But WAR WILL ALWAYS BE WAR, & WEAPONS DO NOT DISCRIMINATE.
  
• Go play something else if you cannot handle, A diverse Battle mech Class/variant/setup/PRO & CONS OF COMBAT
  
• Learn to spot the enemy & use cover.
  
• The character of each battlemech is the game e.g its weakness - strengths - speed - hard points - setups, etc.
  
• I am having plenty of fun & approve of the present building dynamic, & is plenty interesting.
  
• Everyone is a noob now & then, There is sufficient content & links to help any new comer.
  
• DANGER IS GOOD THE MORE THE BETTER, Danger = respect/fear in warfare & adds to combat dynamics.
  
• Money sinks???????????????????????????????????????????????
  
• I think it is well balanced, & only influenced further by introducing you weapons mechs etc.
  
• (Alternative builds) If you cannot understand PRO & CONS the setup/process. Then you should use trail mechs, Until you gain experience so you can find your style and so forth.
  
• Armour is armour not immortal.

Edited by Jadedhawke, 04 April 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[CTsai]

Bro, you joined at 3am today so I dont know where you've been "the last few months"
Anyways I vote no because if you think about it, increased armor means its even harder for newbies to socre a kill while vets still have no problem exploiting weak spots