149 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

I expect that the AC 2 will have next to the Machine Gun the highest rate of fire. Considering smaller caliber it would have the highest v0 next to a gauss rifle. Making it a precise weapon that deliver a hail storm of light weapons.

[Melcyna]

ElliottTarson, on 03 June 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Hawks, on 03 June 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Maybe on paper it's not the most devastatingly powerful weapon in the BT universe, but IIRC it's the longest range weapon we'll have (at least initially) and that could give it a useful psychological component: it can put your opponent under pressure. Anyone ever play any of the 'Total War' series of games? If your enemy has archers that can outrange your archers, he can hit you with impunity. Even if they're not causing a lot of damage, it takes a LOT of self-control to just sit there being plinked at while you wait for them to run out of ammunition, and being totally unable to respond.

I think if my force has mechs that mount AC2s, and yours doesn't, then that just might give me another way to potentially lure ill-disciplined elements of your force away from your main body, isolate them, and destroy them piecemeal.

Excellent way of looking at it. A constant pinging may not take off much armor, but it's sure as heck gonna get your opponent mad. Anger leads to the Dark Side....

A weapon that is useful only against weak player, is not an effective weapon at all...

That essentially is the same as saying, that the weapon requires the enemy to be stupid in order for it to be effective...

No offense of course, but an enemy stupid enough to fulfill that condition will be dead still with any other weapon you can pick.

Archers in total war are skirmishers, they may not cripple something with a single salvo, but they do actual solid damage WHEN PROPERLY used against the correct target (ie: unarmored targets), and thus they can actually skirmish and invoke attention from the enemy since it has actual potential to cause noticeable casualties when properly set.

This is the part that AC2s are missing, a potential to actually do real damage... without it, it's usefulness as a skirmish tool is minimal.

[Robovski]

In my experience the AC/2 was a gun that a designers wants to be useful, but then can;t find a way to make good use of the advantages it offers. Coming from what I recall of my tabletop years, the main strengths of a vanilla AC/2 are:

1. Minimal heat
2. Extreme range
3, 1 ton of ammo is going to be more than plenty (45 shots was it?)
4. Fits into tiny spaces (like a head)
5. It is cheap as anything
6. (this one is reaching) The damage is a solid 2 point with no spread unlike a hypothetical LRM-2

Downsides:
1. (big) you spent 6 tons and 2 crit spaces on a wepon that does 2 points of damage per shot
2. you gave your mech a nice bomb by way of an ammo bin
3. Most set maps aren't really big enough to maneuver and make use of this range

But in the end you could almost always find something better to do with 6 tons and 2 crit spaces (ammo and gun - always remember the ammo), provided you had more space and the c-bills. 2 LRM-5s and ammo for range, or a Large Laser and a heat sink, or find one more ton (and just 1 space) for a PPC you can smash something properly with.

Best application for it I could conceive was on a fast light mech as a way of controlling/harassing slower mechs while heavier friendlies engaged. Say a 25 ton 8/12 whose main role upon finding the enemy is to harass and flank, always trying for weaker rear shots and to make life difficult for heavier mechs. By moving fast and at long range, missiles are largely wasted on it and it will have plenty of ammo to waste back. Problem with this concept is that it requires a lot of room - generally more than you'd find in a typical table map. Fortunately my gaming club had tables with Geohex, so I had a 6'x6' play space. But this role is even better suited to a VTOL or some other support fast vehicle than a mech.

Edited by Robovski, 03 June 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[ElliottTarson]

Melcyna, on 03 June 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

A weapon that is useful only against weak player, is not an effective weapon at all...

That essentially is the same as saying, that the weapon requires the enemy to be stupid in order for it to be effective...

No offense of course, but an enemy stupid enough to fulfill that condition will be dead still with any other weapon you can pick.

Archers in total war are skirmishers, they may not cripple something with a single salvo, but they do actual solid damage WHEN PROPERLY used against the correct target (ie: unarmored targets), and thus they can actually skirmish and invoke attention from the enemy since it has actual potential to cause noticeable casualties when properly set.

This is the part that AC2s are missing, a potential to actually do real damage... without it, it's usefulness as a skirmish tool is minimal.

You took the second part of my post, but not the first. I gave a demonstrable case in which i've used the AC/2 to great effect, both in SP against computer and in MP against humans. AC/2 can and is great for dead on sniping shots, usually punching through the cockpit on the 4th or 5th shot, so around 6 seconds. Even if it's not a pilot kill, it's a great way to cripple a mech quickly.

[Uller Phrost]

I recall making a Assult 4 ac/2s with specialty ammo AP rounds for internal crits. good when you hunting for usable scrap mechs.

We had it tied to iC3 to drop them little XL engined MASC mechs...pilot checks

[Ratzap]

This being a 12v12 game currently, ac/2s should work quite decently. Find a decent spot behind the skirmish with good visability over the battle then pick the most damaged opponent and start crit hunting. ac/2s are not for 1v1s - used in combination with your lance mates they should be pretty nasty.

[UnLimiTeD]

I think they could solve this my allowing a module that, just like offmap artillery or whatever, allows you to call a VTOL or two for support, for say, 30 seconds or until shot.
Then those AC2 and Machine guns will suddenly have a use.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Melcyna, on 03 June 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

A weapon that is useful only against weak player, is not an effective weapon at all...

That essentially is the same as saying, that the weapon requires the enemy to be stupid in order for it to be effective...

No offense of course, but an enemy stupid enough to fulfill that condition will be dead still with any other weapon you can pick.

Archers in total war are skirmishers, they may not cripple something with a single salvo, but they do actual solid damage WHEN PROPERLY used against the correct target (ie: unarmored targets), and thus they can actually skirmish and invoke attention from the enemy since it has actual potential to cause noticeable casualties when properly set.

This is the part that AC2s are missing, a potential to actually do real damage... without it, it's usefulness as a skirmish tool is minimal.

I have to disagree here. You seem to define "real damage" as killing in one shot or something similar. Taking off armor when the enemy can't respond is useful.

As to the psychological effects, that is only one use and I think you underestimate it's power in a game like this. That's also like saying the medium lasers on an Archer are only useful if the opponent closes with you, if he stands off at range there useless. Oh, what about rear mounted weapons? Those are completely useless unless someone is behind you. I guess those have to go as well?

Now I am not arguing it is a supremely cost effective weapon. I am saying, just like the MG/SL, they have their place.

[TheUncle]

the dev's said that one of the main things of MWO is that unlike in previous titles, the maps are much tighter and provide much more cover so that longe range sniping with the biggest Mechs is not going to be effective. I would still like to see actually usable AC/2.

In MWLL they were very useful against Battle Armor and VTOLs/Aeros, but they had an interesting side effect against mechs: The enemy hit would constantly hear whiz sounds and combined with sparks in front of the cockpit this might have led to some confusion. You simply feel like under barrage fire. That'd be nice in here as well.

[Spleenslitta]

I made a thread just like this in the suggestion section of the forum. I also made the request that the SRM 2 be made more usefull as well.
In any case the other fans managed to convince me that the AC/2 can be usefull to a degree even without mounting several of them.
It's all about plinking from longrange into the mainbattle and retreating when you get somebody's attention. Aim for damaged areas and their backs.

A fast light with AC/2 and plenty of ammo can actually be of use if he manages to stay at maximum range. If we get some kind of ammunition that enhances range the AC/2 becomes a very viable weapon indeed.
Maybe the precision ammo from Sarna could fill that role somehow.

TheUncle, on 03 June 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

the dev's said that one of the main things of MWO is that unlike in previous titles, the maps are much tighter and provide much more cover so that longe range sniping with the biggest Mechs is not going to be effective. I would still like to see actually usable AC/2.

In MWLL they were very useful against Battle Armor and VTOLs/Aeros, but they had an interesting side effect against mechs: The enemy hit would constantly hear whiz sounds and combined with sparks in front of the cockpit this might have led to some confusion. You simply feel like under barrage fire. That'd be nice in here as well.

Really? Then my hopes for the AC/2 just went down the toilet.

[Nick Makiaveli]

TheUncle, on 03 June 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

the dev's said that one of the main things of MWO is that unlike in previous titles, the maps are much tighter and provide much more cover so that longe range sniping with the biggest Mechs is not going to be effective. I would still like to see actually usable AC/2.

I thought that what was said was SOME of the maps etc etc, and some are quite a bit larger and more open.

Anyone provide a direct quote/link?

[DocBach]

In MPBT, the AC/2 had such a quick reloading rate combined with the longest range in the game. A very viable tactic called fading featured 'Mechs like the Blackjack and Jagermech in a line formation retreating backwards at full speed unloading as many rounds of AC/2 into their enemy before closing in and finishing them off with medium lasers.

The AC/2 is a high rate of fire sniping weapon, and that's how it should be reflected. A gauss rifle should punch one big hole in the enemy at long range, but should have a long reloading time. The AC/2 should be able to just pump the hate downrange.

[Athena Hart]

Again.. I'm with the OP here.. Who in their right mind made this weapon?!?.. jk

Actually it has its uses, but they are limited. In most games its pretty much useless, but against infantry (not present in MWO) it would be extremely usful as a single round could effectively kill several infantrymen and might be useful for clearing out trees and other light cover to provide enemies fewer hiding places.

Will it be used on any of our 'mechs? Not likely as um......its an AC/2. Though put enough of them on your 'mech and you might get people to laugh at you, which might serve as an excellent distraction so you can attack them with....right... AC/2... They'd just laugh.. then gun you down.

Edited by Athena Hart, 03 June 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[Sassori]

Jeeze how many of these threads are we going to get? Look, we don't know what the refire rate is going to be first off. It could be one shot every ten seconds for all we know (Doubtful, but possible). It could also be used to shoot down bombing runs called in by enemy commanders, we just don't know.

In TT the AC-2 was used primarily for anti-aircraft due to how armor worked on aerospace fighters and how little armor conventional aircraft mounted. Even as it stands it's a good sniping weapon due to it's insane range and threatens enemy lights. 2 points of damage is /still/ 2 points of damage. An LRM-20 might do only 2 points of damage after AMS and missile accuracy yet LRM-20's don't suck.

I'm pretty sure the fire rates are what prompted double armor and internal structure as well as lack of damage transfer, every time one thing is tweaked, it leads to everything else needing to be tweaked. Balance gets lost in the shuffle or at least very difficult to maintain.

How about we let the AC-2 be what it's supposed to be, a long range sniper before we turn it into a long range sniping machine gun that becomes /THE/ most dominant weapon in the game due to firing so quickly at such ranges that nothing can escape it.

At 6 tons a medium mech can mount 3-4 of them, heavies and assaults even more. Sure 2 damage each doesn't sound like much until you get 5 of them raining 10 damage on you every second and can kill /anything/ trying to close in on it before it gets there.

Leave it alone, it's already balanced.

[Frostiken]

The biggest problems with the AC/2, in my eyes:

- Weighs 7 tons / 2 crits minimum, but does absurdly low damage. Has extreme range and accuracy, however.
- Range can almost never be used fully, not even in tabletop.

The latter outweighs any justification for the former, which means it's a bad weapon. You can even add the costs of 0.5T and another crit for CASE as well.

Edited by Frostiken, 03 June 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[Sassori]

AC-2's take up 1 crit each iirc. Space is not an issue. As for Range, the map we've seen is /easily/ big enough to take advantage of the range.

[Frostiken]

Christopher Dayson, on 03 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

AC-2's take up 1 crit each iirc. Space is not an issue. As for Range, the map we've seen is /easily/ big enough to take advantage of the range.

You're forgetting, ballistics need ammo, and ammo is 1T / 1C, and CASE is 0.5T / 1C. I couldn't imagine carrying around that much ammo without CASE, that'd be suicidal.

Edited by Frostiken, 03 June 2012 - 07:22 AM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

City Maps + Rooftops + Jumpjets.. But its hard not to agree that you get way more bang out of an LRM 5 for 1/6 of the weight.
There is little that could salvage this weapon in TT or any of the MWCGs that I have ever played.
MWLL did the best with it that had seen, and even then it was mostly for shooting down AERO.
Its always been a nuance weapon, they belong in the "Oddities" shop, retired, and shelved, by the two headed seahorses.

[Talon Thorn]

In my opinion the only way to make an AC/2 useful is to ad a "0" to the end of the name.

[wanderer]

Vexgrave Lars, on 03 June 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

City Maps + Rooftops + Jumpjets.. But its hard not to agree that you get way more bang out of an LRM 5 for 1/6 of the weight.
There is little that could salvage this weapon in TT or any of the MWCGs that I have ever played.
MWLL did the best with it that had seen, and even then it was mostly for shooting down AERO.
Its always been a nuance weapon, they belong in the "Oddities" shop, retired, and shelved, by the two headed seahorses.

It does have a small advantage over LRM's- the lack of lockon time being required in the online versions. You can fire and cover with one better than you can manage an LRM salvo. TT doesn't have that, but on the other hand, tabletop AC/2's also get access to delicious, delicious precision munitions, aka "the speed hoser ammo". It makes them premium killers of stuff like hovers and light 'Mechs that no longer can avoid the barrage of dings spewing from your AC/2, whereas a trio of LRM 5's for the same weight often simply get dodged to no effect.