149 replies to this topic

[Kyle Hawkins]

All the talk of slowly chipping away at targets is nice, but unless we're fighting on a very open desert map, I'm finding it hard to imagine such ideal firing ranges coming up too often.

AC2's simply demand too much focused fire time to be effective. To get the same results as a set of LRMs, you're going to need to flawlessly keeps your reticule on a potentially moving target, going in and out of incidental cover, for some 10 seconds or so. The entire time you are doing so, you have to sit out in the open exposing yourself entirely and limiting your available attention to the rest of the battle field. LRMs users on the other hand can get their lock without exposing themselves, make the shot, and move back behind cover and reposition before the target knows what'* *** them.

Using this range advantage also puts you away from the protection of your lance. Say a Jenner takes offense to your harassing fire against his buddies and makes the sprint to deal with you. That 900 meter range advantage will mean all of a few seconds to a vengeful light 'mech zig-zaging it's way toward you to bring 4 med lasers and SRMs to bear, and now you're 6 to 12 tons short on the defensive weapons you sorely lack. To get an idea of how that feels, try a instant action battle in MW4, give yourself an AC2 sniping build and face off against something like a Jenner or Commando. See just how hard it is to get a good line of fire without half your shots being wasted into the snow and trees, and how quickly that range advantage is nullified.

[Watchit]

I think AC/2's high rate of fire could be useful as a crit seeker when used in conjuncture with a higher powered weapon like a PPC too punch holes in the armor, sorta like a long range substitute for SRMs. While I agree it's a niche weapon, triggering an ammo explosion from halfway across the map sounds hella fun >:]

Also AC/2's and their ammo will be cheaper than higher caliber AC's

Edited by Watchit, 05 June 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Rodney28021]

El Death Smurf, on 03 June 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

Well in a multiplayer environment, they don’t leave a trail through the air leading back to you. It’s obvious where lasers are coming from and less but still obvious where the stream of missiles come from, and this renders ECM less effective.
I’m just saying you can stay completely off the radar (literally and visually) at long distances and scrape paint for longer periods of time.
They aren’t countered by AMS.
Other than that... no clue.
If the game gives them low velocity/lag time for impact they are just rubbish.
If you can easily hit a heavy or assault at extreme ranges (I don’t think anything out ranges AC2 in the current tech tree right?) then they have a role.
But yes. They are crap.
We’ll see with ammo, recycle time, accuracy/velocity, and so forth

If the Devs give the AC/2 a faster recycle time than any other weapon and less recoil than ppc then could use them to snipe / harrass from long or extreme range. Will try one out but might be useless as a weapon.

[UncleKulikov]

Ways to make it good in MWO:

-Tiny cycle time for a fast manual rate of fire
-Causes target to shake
-Comes with a 24x scope or some form of fancy zoom
-hyper velocity / hitscan to make it more accurate
-increase the damage done
-add a armor piercing mechanic for this weapon only
-make them dirt cheap
-allow 2t of the weapons tonnage to be dedicated ammunition
-0 heat
-no recoil for firing

Most of the significant ones wouldn't be possible without altering the traditional lore.

[Frostiken]

I wouldn't object to simply stepping down its tonnage somewhat first, before making large changes in its mechanics.

6+1 tons is a lot, especially in the weight-challenged pre-XL engine mechs we have.

[Sassori]

The problem with changing cycle times is it makes the weapon superior to heavier AC's. If the AC2 fires 1 round per second then it all the sudden starts doing 20 damage in 10 seconds, same as an AC-20 and at far greater ranges and lighter tonnage. It throws everything out of wack. I get that people don't like the AC-2, the obvious choice is then; Don't use it if you don't like it.

As soon as people start trying to rebalance the AC2, then it unbalances all the other AC's due to that range and weight. That's the trade off I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

[Azimilia]

Only way to make the AC-2 useful is use something like Davion AP ammo... which is impossible because its not available to 3060.

Other than that, I was very happy the Light AC 2 and 5 became accrpted in tournment play.

[JHare]

Yeah, In a sim I don't know how to make it useful.

In TT i would deploy AC/2 infantry in a building/forest during light/medium matches. They were meh early match, but useful mid-late match when mechs had holes in armor. The littlle miscreants would then become something of an area denial weapon due to paranoia about criticals.All that for something like 50 BV

Edited by JHare, 05 June 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Frostiken]

Plus, keep in mind no matter how 'useful' your AC2 becomes, the UAC2 is going to complicate things, and the CUAC2 is going to complicate it even more. If your AC2 is a long-range heavy machine cannon, the CUAC2 would be knocking limbs apart before they could even close to LRM range.

[HANGMAN1962]

i used to run a riflemen w/ 4 ac-2's[ 2 in each arm ] was great at a-a and was fun on clanners if u kept it at extreme range nothing could touch you.
used a lot of tier 3 rules to make it fast and carry lots of ammo tho.{ xl engine endo didnt need dble heatsinks,and w/ masc- trple str. myomar was even faster heheh
was evil when clan versions of guns was addded to it 2
clan's went to 27 hex range as i remember, oh ya what was that clan assualt that had 4 or 5 ultra ac-2 in each arm called that was just wrong for a secendery clan mech.
a map and 1/2 away and u getting 20 to 40 pnt's of dmg
have gotten to like the rotery ac-2 on a hatchetmen tho hehehe

sincerly the "hangman"

[UncleKulikov]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 June 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Don't use it if you don't like it.

As soon as people start trying to rebalance the AC2, then it unbalances all the other AC's due to that range and weight. That's the trade off I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

It's not an issue of understanding, it's an issue of the weapon being worthless in this circumstance and only marginally better in extremely limited circumstances. AC/2s are awful against mechs, and can't be justified for the tonnage and critical space. That's the problem.

[Reno Blade]

imagine differente ROF for the calibers
AC2 2 sec
AC5 3 sec
AC10 4 sec
AC20 5 sec

over a time of 30seconds its:
2dmg x 30/2 = 30
5dmg x 30/3 = 50
10dmg x 30/4 = 75
20dmg x 30/5 = 120

if you would have 5 seconds on all calibers that would be over 30sec:

2dmg x 30/5 = 12
5dmg x 30/5 = 30
10dmg x 30/5 = 60
20dmg x 30/5 = 120

I let you think about calculation range/tonnage to the example

[Sassori]

Except if you use those rate of fire differences then balance is again shunted sideways since all of the sudden an AC 10 isn't doing twice the damage of an AC 5 even though it has shorter range, and the AC 20 is only doing /4/ times as much damage as the AC2 even though it's range is /much/ shorter than the AC2.

The AC2 has a use, it does, whether or not it's limited use doesn't mean it doesn't have a use. LRM's have almost no use inside of 180 meters, that's part of their weakness. It doesn't mean we need to beef them up in any way shape or form. The AC2 doesn't /need/ to be buffed because it screws up practically everything else. If an AC2 can put out the same damage as a Large Laser at far better range without the heat then we've got problems there too.

And as strange as some people might think, every weapon doesn't have to have a place on every mech. Every weapon doesn't have to be good in every circumstance. Every weapon doesn't have to be good. The AC2 is small damage at extreme range for OK weight. It weighs 1 ton more than a large laser, 2 after 1 ton of ammo, but has a massive range advantage and is far more efficient heat wise.

I've still yet to see a reasonable reason to buff the AC2 other than 'But it isn't as good as <Insert weapon here>.' I say the AC2 is at least comparable because of range and crit space necessary alone. Sure it may not be the perfect weapon, but (and here's the important part) No Weapon Is.

[CaptianViolence]

ac/2 is they way i go to kill big clan assualt mechs. just head hit them to death, the alternative of getting close enough for one to shoot me unappealling

[Yeach]

Reno Blade, on 05 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

imagine differente ROF for the calibers
AC2 2 sec
AC5 3 sec
AC10 4 sec
AC20 5 sec

over a time of 30seconds its:
2dmg x 30/2 = 30
5dmg x 30/3 = 50
10dmg x 30/4 = 75
20dmg x 30/5 = 120

AC10 loses in that comparison

AC2 to AC5 = 20 damage (67% increase)
AC5 to AC10 = 25 damage (50% increase)
AC10 to AC20 = 45 damage (60% increase)

[Azimilia]

Well, Lets see how the game mechanics work here. I mean this has to be different from table top where I can just load specalty ammo in the Jagermech and watch people actually fear it. (The AP ammo is just a gigantic psychological weapon, not likely to hit a crit, but people seem to be afraid, regardless)

[smackweasel]

nah, its useless and all the fluff to make yourself believe it is useful is wasted

For the range and damage output it aint worth it and call me a non believer but lets see how the guass rifle works out in the game mechanics. We all saw how that happened in the last games

[Bleakheart]

So I was sitting around thinking about AC2s and how the devs could make them a worthwhile item instead of a BB gun or plinking rifle. An old experiment my friends and I did when making armor for SCA fighting came to mind. We'd been wondering exactly how tough the aluminum plates we'd been shaping were, so we took them out to the desert and shot a couple with a .45 auto. To our surprise, the plates held, but were badly dented (plates in question were almost 1/4 inch thick). We made a few pieces of gear out of them, and then I had a box of unused plates laying around for a few years. So, one day I'm out in the back yard sighting in a .22 rifle. I stumbled across the leftover plates and remembered how they'd held up to the .45, so I set them out and shot them. The much smaller bullet made a hole clean through the plate, almost looking like a drill had done it.

So, with modern weapons tech producing PDWs and hypervelocity rounds that used small caliber rounds to ovecome body armor, could that be the route the Devs take in reguards to the much maligned AC2? Smaller and faster in order to defeat armor and get the crit per some of the rules we've seen in the past? The actual mechanics of it are realistic, so maybe that's what will make them a viable loadout?

[Azimilia]

also worth noting an AC-20 gives only 5 shots a ton versus 45 shots a ton. Better not miss with that AC-20, but the AC-2, depending on game mechanics might be a bullet hose.

[Naberius]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 June 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

The problem with changing cycle times is it makes the weapon superior to heavier AC's. If the AC2 fires 1 round per second then it all the sudden starts doing 20 damage in 10 seconds, same as an AC-20 and at far greater ranges and lighter tonnage. It throws everything out of wack. I get that people don't like the AC-2, the obvious choice is then; Don't use it if you don't like it.

As soon as people start trying to rebalance the AC2, then it unbalances all the other AC's due to that range and weight. That's the trade off I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

And while you're slowly whittling that target away, a Hunchback comes around a corner, taps you in the back and walks off with another kill because you stood still for 10 seconds firing at a guy who's probably laughing his head off at some **** plinking his paintjob off.

Edit: Wow I had no idea that word would get censored, kind of funny.

Edited by Naberius, 05 June 2012 - 09:47 PM.