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General Observations For Consideration, By A Veteran.


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#41 Aedan Dosiere

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:42 AM

View PostCorwin Vickers, on 05 April 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:



Summary: A bunch of dudes closed to 0 range with 2 AC20 equipped cats and died 1 by 1. They also probably stopped to shoot their weapons and never torso twisted to spread damage.

The end.


Ok, for starters this was not at 0 range and how do you spread 40/dmg that is focused on a single panel?

It was probably about 200m or so for the headshot to the HM Highlander. Dead. The Atlas did try to twist. I assume it was after seeing his center torso armor evaporate, but to bring any serious weapons to bear he had to twist back. Dead. The Awesome came in from their side firing on the first AC Cat, they simply turned and cored him. Dead.

Yeah, the end. The end of 270 tons of mech who can't shoot out of their butts, so they must face the target to apply any damage. Twisting won't help if you can never bring your weapons to bear on a target for fear of getting insta-cored.

By the way, this synopsis does not bring any relevant argument to the thread to support the legitimacy of the build. Again these little AC Cats and AC Jagers are something never seen before in ANY of the Mechwarrior / Battletech universe.

Edited by Aedan Dosiere, 05 April 2013 - 02:54 AM.


#42 Frederik Focht

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:43 AM

View PostPrathios, on 05 April 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

The IIC was built with the intention of putting an UAC20 in it. I have no beef with that mech. It's also a clan mech... They have better stuff...


FYI, the hunchback IIC has TWO UAC20s!! It doesnt get more deadly than that for a brawler. Unless you're riding a direwolf (daishi) with two AC20s and extras.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Hunchback_IIC

#43 Prathios

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:53 AM

View PostFrederik Focht, on 05 April 2013 - 02:43 AM, said:


FYI, the hunchback IIC has TWO UAC20s!! It doesnt get more deadly than that for a brawler. Unless you're riding a direwolf (daishi) with two AC20s and extras.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Hunchback_IIC


Yes, it certainly had the firepower! But if you had read your own link, or even the summary Aedan posted earlier, you would see it was A) Using an XL engine, and :D lightly armored.

"The Hunchback IIC is a Clan-tech refit of the venerable Hunchback. Its meager six tons of armor, coupled with paltry ammunition and lack of long-range weapons, led Inner Sphere observers to conclude that this 'Mech was a last-ditch effort for failed warriors to die with glory. In truth, the assignment of a Hunchback IIC was essentially a death sentence. Warriors given this machine were not expected to survive their next battle."

First two sentences of the link you posted. You rather defeated your own argument there. Current Jagers and Cats can use regular engines with maxed armor to achieve their damage output. An IIC would probably die from a single round of IS AC20 to his center torso. I'll grant you that if it gets to shoot anything... ouch.

Edited by Prathios, 05 April 2013 - 02:56 AM.


#44 Frederik Focht

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 02:59 AM

View PostAedan Dosiere, on 05 April 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

Ok, for starters this was not at 0 range. Probably about 200m or so for the headshot to the HM Highlander. Dead. The Atlas did try to twist. I assume it was after seeing his center torso armor evaporate, but to bring any serious weapons to bear he had to twist back. Dead. The Awesome came in from their side firing on the first AC Cat, they simply turned and cored him. Dead. Yeah, the end. The end of 270 tons of mech who can't shoot out of their butts, so they must face the target to apply any damage. Twisting won't help if you can never bring your weapons to bear on a target for fear of getting insta-cored. By the way, this synopsis does not bring any relevant argument to the thread to support the legitimacy of the build. Again these little AC Cats and AC Jagers are something never seen before in ANY of the Mechwarrior / Battletech universe.


The fact that they got within effective range of the AC20 cats was a mistake in the first place. Engage them from 600ms out and its a different story.

Also regarding the Clan mechs being decimated from 270m effective range battlemechs who don't move very fast. Sorry not likely. A nova would devastate that ****. Much less all the other clanner designs built around long range firepower. Adders (pumas) with two clan erppcs, which is canon btw, would core your ****** K2s and Jagers in no time.

But I do agree that there is no precedent for mounting two AC20s on a Jager or a Catapult in the history of any lore or TT records ever.

View PostPrathios, on 05 April 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Yes, it certainly had the firepower! But if you had read your own link, or even the summary Aedan posted earlier, you would see it was A) Using an XL engine, and :D lightly armored. "The Hunchback IIC is a Clan-tech refit of the venerable Hunchback. Its meager six tons of armor, coupled with paltry ammunition and lack of long-range weapons, led Inner Sphere observers to conclude that this 'Mech was a last-ditch effort for failed warriors to die with glory. In truth, the assignment of a Hunchback IIC was essentially a death sentence. Warriors given this machine were not expected to survive their next battle." First two sentences of the link you posted. You rather defeated your own argument there. Current Jagers and Cats can use regular engines with maxed armor to achieve their damage output. An IIC would probably die from a single round of IS AC20 to his center torso. I'll grant you that if it gets to shoot anything... ouch.


You do know that Clan XL engines allow it to survive side torso destruction. It also refers to fighting other clan weapons, cos second-line mechs rarely fight IS forces. No **** it wouldn't survive all of ten seconds dancing around a nova, or an adder, which could core it before it could even fire back. The same **** will happen to the slow-as-hell AC20s Jager and Cat builds if they ever did tangle with a nova or adder. Death sentence from long range direct fire.

Edited by Frederik Focht, 05 April 2013 - 03:01 AM.


#45 Aedan Dosiere

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:03 AM

View PostFrederik Focht, on 05 April 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:


The fact that they got within effective range of the AC20 cats was a mistake in the first place. Engage them from 600ms out and its a different story.

Also regarding the Clan mechs being decimated from 270m effective range battlemechs who don't move very fast. Sorry not likely. A nova would devastate that ****. Much less all the other clanner designs built around long range firepower. Adders (pumas) with two clan erppcs, which is canon btw, would core your ****** K2s and Jagers in no time.

But I do agree that there is no precedent for mounting two AC20s on a Jager or a Catapult in the history of any lore or TT records ever.


Getting within range of is a relative term. The Heavy Metal I was watching rounded a building right into the face of the two AC Cats. The Atlas followed him in to engage. The Awesome came between two buildings from their sides. The only way to have engaged that pair was to close to closer range because of the structures that were present. Most of the maps we play on do not give clear line-of-sighe avenues where mechs will just stand there and let you shoot at them. I agree, the way to engage them would be at range, but they can close that range, use cover or simply hide if they are smart.

That scenario was used as an extreme example. Sorry, that was me being facetious. However if they dropped into some of the matches I have been in lately I am not sure that would be the case. :D

Edited by Aedan Dosiere, 05 April 2013 - 03:11 AM.


#46 Frederik Focht

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:07 AM

View PostAedan Dosiere, on 05 April 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

O With 7 shots from the combined pair, two 65 ton mechs downed 270 tons of opposition barely taking any damage themselves. Catapults were never designed to be able to do that. If they were, every body would have piloted them and the Clan invasion would have been nothing more than a border skirmish quickly put down by a thousand CPLT-K2s showing up at the edge of IS space. Any argument on this point to the contrary should have some pretty heavy research to back it up as no where have I ever seen such a build in ANY of the original content, games or video games which have existed for the better part of 30 year.


My center paragraph was referring to your claim that mass produced AC20s cats would have put down the Clan invasion. I know you are maybe attempting to use hyperbole, just trying to show you how bad the logic is. The Clanners would be pretty stupid to fall for the AC40 cat more than once.

Ah alright no harm no foul. But I have seen many AC40 mechs get their ***** handed to them from further than 270m cos we had ppc/gauss boats who were willing to play the waiting game with them (and watched their flanks against slow-as-hell mechs). I do agree that two AC20s should have some sort of drawback (especially on 80+ kph Jagers).

Edited by Frederik Focht, 05 April 2013 - 03:11 AM.


#47 Corwin Vickers

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:07 AM

That you see this as a no win situation shows where you are coming from.

#48 Jae Hyun Nakamura

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:07 AM

There could be a possibility, thou complicated, to make people think twice before shooting an alpha no matter of the weapons.It's just a thing i miss in general as a BT TT player. Negative influence of heat on movement and aiming. The decrease of movement from maybe 50% of heat to 10% of speed is makeable. Nevative influence of beat on aiming could e done by a 'look through steam' (something you can see over hot roads, a warm airflow or something) cause the cockpit should glow if you are sitting straight over the engine.

#49 Aedan Dosiere

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:12 AM

View PostFrederik Focht, on 05 April 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:


My center paragraph was referring to your claim that mass produced AC20s cats would have put down the Clan invasion. I know you are maybe attempting to use hyperbole, just trying to show you how bad the logic is. The Clanners would be pretty stupid to fall for the AC40 cat more than once.


Yeah, I edited my previous. That was me using an extreme example and being facetious.

#50 Jae Hyun Nakamura

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:14 AM

There could be a possibility, thou complicated, to make people think twice before shooting an alpha no matter of the weapons.It's just a thing i miss in general as a BT TT player. Negative influence of heat on movement and aiming. The decrease of movement from maybe 50% of heat to 10% of speed is makeable. Nevative influence of beat on aiming could e done by a 'look through steam' (something you can see over hot roads, a warm airflow or something) cause the cockpit should glow if you are sitting straight over the engine.

#51 Frederik Focht

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:14 AM

But what does amuse me is that if we see so much angst over the AC20 build, I wonder what kind of state the forums will be when PGI introduces the Clan ER medium laser and the ULTRA AC20 in all its TT and canon glory to MWO. Imagine what a hunchback or jenner pilot would do when they see C ER medium laser, **** in their pants is what's likely.

Edited by Frederik Focht, 05 April 2013 - 03:16 AM.


#52 Aedan Dosiere

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:18 AM

View PostCorwin Vickers, on 05 April 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

That you see this as a no win situation shows where you are coming from.


How do I see this as a no win situation? Oh, and I will tell you exactly where I am coming from. Those builds have never existed, period. Not in either the Battletech or Mechwarrior universes. Not by Clan or Inner Sphere technologies.

View PostFrederik Focht, on 05 April 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

But what does amuse me is that if we see so much angst over the AC20 build, I wonder what kind of state the forums will be when PGI introduces the Clan ER medium laser and the ULTRA AC20 to MWO. Imagine what a hunchback or jenner pilot would do when they see C ER medium laser, **** in their pants is what's likely.


My angst is really over PGI claiming that they were going to keep this within the rules of the traditional universes and IPs, then turning around and disregarding so much of it. I am good with Clan weaponry. It was the **** compared to everything that the IS had at the time.

#53 Prathios

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostFrederik Focht, on 05 April 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:


My center paragraph was referring to your claim that mass produced AC20s cats would have put down the Clan invasion. I know you are maybe attempting to use hyperbole, just trying to show you how bad the logic is. The Clanners would be pretty stupid to fall for the AC40 cat more than once.

Ah alright no harm no foul. But I have seen many AC40 mechs get their ***** handed to them from further than 270m cos we had ppc/gauss boats who were willing to play the waiting game with them (and watched their flanks against slow-as-hell mechs). I do agree that two AC20s should have some sort of drawback (especially on 80+ kph Jagers).


Interestingly I kill them all the time. Because I've become paranoid about every corner, ever hill, every single place one could be waiting. If I see a k2 or Jager of any kind I kill it first and fast. But, when I get caught inside 200 by one it's a struggle I have to hope and pray that the pilot is dumb enough to keep shooting even when I'm not offering my center torso or head. That way I have 4 seconds to shoot back before offering my other side. I had one tonight catch me in my Highlander. I jumped over him in order to buy some time, and I ended up coring him first... But I had an exposed core. I was an easy kill for the Atlas that came in behind me in the time I took fighting the Jager. To struggle so much 1v1 against a Jager... It's just plain ridiculous. Also, thank you for keeping your replies civil and interesting Frederik. Your tone is appreciated.

As for Corwin Vickers, you exhibit the behavior of a troll of the worst order. But I am very happy to say, your name is unique enough that I can recall several games I have played against you... I was not impressed. I would be more than happy to destroy you on any occasion of your choosing.

#54 KinLuu

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:20 AM

View PostAedan Dosiere, on 05 April 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:


How do I see this as a no win situation? Oh, and I will tell you exactly where I am coming from. Those builds have never existed, period. Not in either the Battletech or Mechwarrior universes. Not by Clan or Inner Sphere technologies.



My angst is really over PGI claiming that they were going to keep this within the rules of the traditional universes and IPs, then turning around and disregarding so much of it. I am good with Clan weaponry. It was the **** compared to everything that the IS had at the time.


That is the great thing about battletech. There are a lot of customization options. Everything goes, as long as tonnage and criticals allow it.

And coincidently, all the builds you cry about are allowed by the rules.

#55 Frederik Focht

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:22 AM

View PostAedan Dosiere, on 05 April 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

My angst is really over PGI claiming that they were going to keep this within the rules of the traditional universes and IPs, then turning around and disregarding so much of it. I am good with Clan weaponry. It was the **** compared to everything that the IS had at the time.


Which is why I am saying, there should be some drawback for mounting two AC20s. But the K2 pretty much nerfs itself to mount those. It is the 80kph and above Jagers which need a bit of tweaking.

#56 KinLuu

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:24 AM

View PostFrederik Focht, on 05 April 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:


Which is why I am saying, there should be some drawback for mounting two AC20s. But the K2 pretty much nerfs itself to mount those. It is the 80kph and above Jagers which need a bit of tweaking.


Giant side torsos and XL engines are a weakness as well. Not that huge, but still it is a drawback.

#57 Frederik Focht

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:30 AM

View PostPrathios, on 05 April 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

To struggle so much 1v1 against a Jager... It's just plain ridiculous.


This! This sentence really grasps the gist of your argument. If anyone plays a close range brawler or plays in maps which favour close range brawlers like the frozen city or river city, he/she sweats bullets a the thought of rounding a corner and coming face to face with a Jager or a Cat. The Jagers are pretty unreasonable, fighting them is often a death sentence, as dueling them often results in a stripped CT (which you did cite). And they move so damn fast. A potential drawback is that its either impossible to fire two ac20s at the same time under a certain tonnage (makes sense cos AC20s are super-heavy weapons) or that firing both at the same time will result in some sort of "recoil". In fact IS mechs like the Hollander were designed around mitigating recoil from its huge gun.

#58 Prathios

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:47 AM

View PostFrederik Focht, on 05 April 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:


This! This sentence really grasps the gist of your argument. If anyone plays a close range brawler or plays in maps which favour close range brawlers like the frozen city or river city, he/she sweats bullets a the thought of rounding a corner and coming face to face with a Jager or a Cat. The Jagers are pretty unreasonable, fighting them is often a death sentence, as dueling them often results in a stripped CT (which you did cite). And they move so damn fast. A potential drawback is that its either impossible to fire two ac20s at the same time under a certain tonnage (makes sense cos AC20s are super-heavy weapons) or that firing both at the same time will result in some sort of "recoil". In fact IS mechs like the Hollander were designed around mitigating recoil from its huge gun.


I had forgotten that they had to design a recoil dampener on the Hollander, which was a mech designed around a Gauss rifle which has less recoil than an AC20. Granted it is 30 tons less, but it is only compensating for 1 of them. It would be hard to believe that a Jager could keep from falling over backwards when it's weapons are mounted above its head.

#59 Appogee

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:16 AM

View PostPrathios, on 04 April 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

I've been playing Mechwarrior since 2
You noob. I was legging Atlas's in a Jenner in MW1. I will filling in armour dots on a pad with a pencil. I got lead poisoning from painting cheap pewter figurines. Don't you dare call yourself a ''veteran''!

:D

#60 Prathios

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:22 AM

View PostAppogee, on 05 April 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

You noob. I was legging Atlas's in a Jenner in MW1. I will filling in armour dots on a pad with a pencil. I got lead poisoning from painting cheap pewter figurines. Don't you dare call yourself a ''veteran''!

:D


You sir, I salute you. I paint figures myself... just not battlemechs, I would likely do it if there were a kickass tabletop game with nice 4-6 inch figures. More of a Warmachine guy myself.





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