102 replies to this topic

[Nick Makiaveli]

Black Sunder, on 03 June 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

The problem with that idea is it then paints the assault mechs as "endgame" when they are not.

/Thread.

[MacabreDerek]

Renan Ruivo, on 03 June 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I got there without burning myself out. WoT is not a game where you should expect to be on the top after just a week or two of play, like World of Warcraft, for instance. If you try to get there as fast as possible then yes, you can bet its going to be a grind. And that is the point, you are not supposed to go there as fast as possible, you're supposed to enjoy the game.

First of all, thanks for the links, I am glad you are backing up your position with the information available to you.

Second of all, getting there 'without burning yourself out' may have worked for you, but try to understand it from my perspective. As it stands, there is NO tank I currently have access to that alows me to participate in the game in any meaningful way. I have put far more hours into it simply because I am playing with friends who are War and Tank enthusiasts, but I am not having fun and I do not value my time played on WoTs. Now even if I were to apply the slow grind over a long period of time, that period of time is 0 enjoyment. If I get no enjoyment out of it, then what's the point, being a game's purpose is primarily to entertain.

Keep in mind, I am far from impaitent, especially when it comes to games which I take a serious interest in. I primarily play Fighters, and in Fighters if you want to be good, you have to put the months if not years of practice before you can even begin to call yourself 'good'. That being said, I find enjoyment and value in even going into training mode and hammering out some new combos or tech-trap into muscle memory.

But with WoTs, I honestly see no pay-off. The benchmark to be able to play (Tiers 8+) so far are the only real viable tanks I've seen, and everything else is pot-shots or cannon-fodder.

[Bear44]

SwollenSac, on 03 June 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

This will be nothing like WoT. WoT still has so many issues with balancing. Pitting a T5 tank vs T9-10 is just stupidity that of course happens pretty much every game in WoT.

MWO wont have tiers (thank god). In this game a medium laser is a medium laser is a medium laser. In WoT a 90 is not the same as a 120. So no WoT can keep their tiers out of MWO thank you very much.

what this man said, +1 to rep.

>team balance ain't even right sometimes in wot. (4 type 59 on one side, while the other side gets no medium tier 8s at all)
>individual balance is never right (you find yourself at bottom or middle most of the time)
>match making issues (the high spread, making the lower tiers of that match pretty much useless for many scenarios, and especially useless after HE nerf, try using a KV to scout when your bottom of the food chain lol)
>mechanics (unfortunity, the match making aids high tier tanks to have a easy time bouncing all the shots from poor tiers that happen to be 3 tiers lower, except when your arty)
>gold ammo (need i say more)

MacabreDerek, on 03 June 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

First of all, thanks for the links, I am glad you are backing up your position with the information available to you.

Second of all, getting there 'without burning yourself out' may have worked for you, but try to understand it from my perspective. As it stands, there is NO tank I currently have access to that alows me to participate in the game in any meaningful way. I have put far more hours into it simply because I am playing with friends who are War and Tank enthusiasts, but I am not having fun and I do not value my time played on WoTs. Now even if I were to apply the slow grind over a long period of time, that period of time is 0 enjoyment. If I get no enjoyment out of it, then what's the point, being a game's purpose is primarily to entertain.

Keep in mind, I am far from impaitent, especially when it comes to games which I take a serious interest in. I primarily play Fighters, and in Fighters if you want to be good, you have to put the months if not years of practice before you can even begin to call yourself 'good'. That being said, I find enjoyment and value in even going into training mode and hammering out some new combos or tech-trap into muscle memory.

But with WoTs, I honestly see no pay-off. The benchmark to be able to play (Tiers 8+) so far are the only real viable tanks I've seen, and everything else is pot-shots or cannon-fodder.

i joined march 2012 in wot. what i've learned is, tier 2/9/10 is the sweet spot. all the other tiers will pit you now against bigger tanks VERY OFTEN. about 1/7 to 1/10 rounds i'll be top 5 of the match. the rest of the times your praying your top tier team members will do good to pass on that success to you.

Edited by Bear44, 03 June 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[PowerKill Necron]

MadBoris, on 03 June 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Yeah, a retarded chimp laughing all the way to the bank.

See, that is the crossroads, and you chose to get pissed about it and resent it.
While that crazy chimp banks on others choosing an alternate route, a way to avoid the strife of disliking the game you were liking a lot and invested yourself in, to spend money to climb up a tree because 'everyone' knows the top is the best.

Well, I don't actually mind the tier system for unlocking new weapons and equipment, but WOT exacerbates the terrible game imbalances when that tier system is mated to the Matchmaker. Seeing as the only difference between the weapons on a Light and an Assault will be that the assault can carry more it probably won't be an issue. Unless that is they restrict certain weapons to certain trees. So if for instance you need to research the Awesome tree to unlock PPCs for example. That would be bad, but I just can't see that happening because the Battletech game mechanics just don't lend themselves to that system because all the mechs use the same weapons reguardless of class.

Also since it appears you can choose from a light, Medium, Heavy or Assault class right out of the gate the only real difference will be what your role is. I guess we will have to wait and see just how the game is monetized. They have to make money, and WOT uses the built-in game imbalances to do that, but MW would need to manufacture those imbalances to do it the same way.

[Renan Ruivo]

MacabreDerek, on 03 June 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

But with WoTs, I honestly see no pay-off. The benchmark to be able to play (Tiers 8+) so far are the only real viable tanks I've seen, and everything else is pot-shots or cannon-fodder.

Then its just a matter of you simply not liking the game. It is impossible for me to "put myself in another man's shoes", but in your case it looks like you have a few friends who really enjoy the game and you are trying to enjoy it as well so that you can play it together.


As for the game itself, it all comes back to what i was saying. World of Tanks is a perfect game for team-play. If all someone has ever experienced were PUGs then i get where the frustration is coming from. You can do a lot as a T5 tank on a T9 match if your tank is properly equipped and you know how to drive it. You just have to drive it differently from the way you would on an evenly "tiered" match. Sometimes you just have to be on the bottom, and if you know how to play at the bottom then you will have a lot of fun, because the tanks on the top more often then not will apply the mentality of "bigger is better" and will believe that they can just wtfpwn anyone that is three or four tiers below.


They are wrong.

[LoscC3nturion]

GOD NO!!!!

nuf sed

[LordKnightFandragon]

WORLD OF TANKS TIERS FOR MECHWARRIOR ONLINE

NOT NO BUT FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.. NO

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 03 June 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Volthorne]

MadBoris, on 03 June 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

I don't take it personally. Unlocking things by Xp is not my idea to promote, it's my observation based on what I have seen, it's not been stated anywhere specifically in those words. I used my words pretty carefully, "I am pretty positive". Ultimately unlocking by XP, by play time in the game, would mean you won't have every mech/weapon/module in the MW:o catalog to buy with your first $20.
I take responsibility for the unlocking by XP concept, but as stated it's based on my observations of known information, never meant to mislead that it should be done, or that it is a stated feature.

As far as the tree thing, and it resembling WoT, and what they mean by tree, the poster above me and PC Gamer mentioned that, don't kill the messenger. The LRM thing was something I pulled out of my butt on the fly, it was a wild guess on the tree concept.

It's good you expressed your opinion on it though.

You can't even buy weapons/equipment with Mech Credits (Hard currency). XP is solely used for "leveling up" your Chassis EXP and Pilot EXP. This has all been stated. Using pre-defined resources for things other than they're intended to do is flat out stupid.

I know Tribes:Ascend uses XP for unlocking things, but you cannot "level up" your character, per se. Even then, Tribes is a terrible example, what with the 100K+ EXP grinds it takes to unlock new primary weapons, which are often better than the default.

PC Gamer (while normally being decent at reporting) is WAY off the mark. The only things involving "trees" of any sort are the 'Mech Chassis and Pilot trees. Tech has absolutely ****-all to do with anything regarding "trees". This has also been stated.

[Karyudo ds]

How do you even put tiers into a game where every mechs weapons come from the same pool, and balances them with armor and speed? These WoT threads need to go away. This is Mechwarrior. Next you know it people will start asking for the racoon suit for their commandos.

[MadBoris]

PKNecron, on 03 June 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Well, I don't actually mind the tier system for unlocking new weapons and equipment, but WOT exacerbates the terrible game imbalances when that tier system is mated to the Matchmaker. Seeing as the only difference between the weapons on a Light and an Assault will be that the assault can carry more it probably won't be an issue. Unless that is they restrict certain weapons to certain trees. So if for instance you need to research the Awesome tree to unlock PPCs for example. That would be bad, but I just can't see that happening because the Battletech game mechanics just don't lend themselves to that system because all the mechs use the same weapons reguardless of class.

Also since it appears you can choose from a light, Medium, Heavy or Assault class right out of the gate the only real difference will be what your role is. I guess we will have to wait and see just how the game is monetized. They have to make money, and WOT uses the built-in game imbalances to do that, but MW would need to manufacture those imbalances to do it the same way.

I often said tuning the matchmaker to like 3 tiers, and some player skill if possible, would do so much for the fun factor of the game, oh well.

As to M:WO, and how it will be monetized without tiering, it is a mystery.
There has to be some sort of tree or unlock system somewhere in the game we haven't seen too clearly yet, I'd imagine.

Edited by MadBoris, 03 June 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[MadBoris]

Volthorne, on 03 June 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

You can't even buy weapons/equipment with Mech Credits (Hard currency). XP is solely used for "leveling up" your Chassis EXP and Pilot EXP. This has all been stated. Using pre-defined resources for things other than they're intended to do is flat out stupid.

Thanks for confirming that weapons aren't purchasable with hard currency, I wasn't sure we established that MC will never buy weapons or that currency can't be somehow transformed to CB. I hoped it would not be that way. Looking at the mechlab one would think it's only CB.
I wasn't aware their comments on XP where all exclusive, meaning 'solely' as you say, I forget where that was now.

Quote

I know Tribes:Ascend uses XP for unlocking things, but you cannot "level up" your character, per se. Even then, Tribes is a terrible example, what with the 100K+ EXP grinds it takes to unlock new primary weapons, which are often better than the default.

First of all, you found the worst point, 100k weapons, what about the 40k weapons, what about that no upgrades can be purchased?
Right now I have about 400k, 100k is nothing in a game that can stay fun to play for some.
It's not a terrible example, one of the best F2P examples, had it not been for these previous F2P examples M:WO could never be what it will be.

Quote

PC Gamer (while normally being decent at reporting) is WAY off the mark. The only things involving "trees" of any sort are the 'Mech Chassis and Pilot trees. Tech has absolutely ****-all to do with anything regarding "trees". This has also been stated.

Mech chassis having trees sounds tiered.
If you can point me to anything you mention is stated on trees, it would be appreciated.

[Renan Ruivo]

MadBoris, on 03 June 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

As to M:WO, and how it will be monetized without tiering, it is a mystery.
There has to be some sort of tree or unlock system somewhere in the game we haven't seen too clearly yet, I'd imagine.

Yes. What i am seeing are too much Battletech tabletop purists that seem to think that this is a shelf game. It is not. It is a F2P Massive Multiplayer Online Game. PGI are obviously well staffed to make one hell of a faithfull Mechwarrior game, but to expect them to make this the most pure and faithfull battletech experience that you can just hop in and immediatly play the way you want to is just living in denial.

Honestly i had a high regard for the average poster in these forums, but seeing the extent of myopic (and some downright infantile) people regarding this particular subject has made me shake my head in disbelief.


PGI does not run a charity, and to expect the most pure experience out of a free-to-play game without having to either open your wallet or spend hours upon hours of grinding its being naive, at best.


So what i have left to say to those people is ... don't even take my word for it. Go here: http://mwomercs.com/...e-warfare-cont/.

What you see there is, in all likelihood, exactly what you have been preaching against. I can't say with any certainty that mechs will be divided in (for the lack of better word) "tiers", but i am very sure that we will have to work (or "grind", if you will) if we want every available mech at any given size class. PGI will, in my opinion, definatly make some chassis inside a same size class more "powerfull" and "desirable" than others. This is the way it should be.

[MadBoris]

Renan Ruivo, on 03 June 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yes. What i am seeing are too much Battletech tabletop purists that seem to think that this is a shelf game. It is not. It is a F2P Massive Multiplayer Online Game. PGI are obviously well staffed to make one hell of a faithfull Mechwarrior game, but to expect them to make this the most pure and faithfull battletech experience that you can just hop in and immediatly play the way you want to is just living in denial.

Honestly i had a high regard for the average poster in these forums, but seeing the extent of myopic (and some downright infantile) people regarding this particular subject has made me shake my head in disbelief.


PGI does not run a charity, and to expect the most pure experience out of a free-to-play game without having to either open your wallet or spend hours upon hours of grinding its being naive, at best.


So what i have left to say to those people is ... don't even take my word for it. Go here: http://mwomercs.com/...e-warfare-cont/.

What you see there is, in all likelihood, exactly what you have been preaching against. I can't say with any certainty that mechs will be divided in (for the lack of better word) "tiers", but i am very sure that we will have to work (or "grind", if you will) if we want every available mech at any given size class. PGI will, in my opinion, definatly make some chassis inside a same size class more "powerfull" and "desirable" than others. This is the way it should be.

I just wanted to say, there is no reason for people to assume their will be a "GRIND" like WoT.
I'm sure hoping it feels like something a lot more natural, not grindy.

As an example for those that liked RPG's, playing some of the best didn't feel horrible (ugghh I hate the grind) getting the next level, spell, weapon unlock, etc. If it's done right.

Those were a joy to play (for RPG's), but if you try to artificially lengthen things out to where they are truly unenjoyable for months, well that is grind.

Having the whole M:WO catalog wide open from the beginning seems hard to pull off in my mind is all, but it sure doesn't have to be a bad experience grind, if they do it right. The cost of some mech chassis does look scarey though.

Edited by MadBoris, 03 June 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[Kanatta Jing]

Well there is totally 3 tiers in Mech Warrior. Tech 1, LosTech and ClanTech.

Some are better then others but none is untouchable.

[Volthorne]

MadBoris, on 03 June 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Mech chassis having trees sounds tiered.
If you can point me to anything you mention is stated on trees, it would be appreciated.

And on that note, I direct you to this link which shows exactly what I mean by "trees". Small bonuses on a PER CHASSIS basis, or universal through your pilot and modules. Nothing to do with Tech or having more chassis made available.

[Renan Ruivo]

MadBoris, on 03 June 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

I just wanted to say, there is no reason for people to assume their will be a "GRIND" like WoT.
I'm sure hoping it feels like something a lot more natural, not grindy.

As an example for those that liked RPG's, playing some of the best didn't feel horrible (ugghh I hate the grind) getting the next level, spell, weapon unlock, etc. If it's done right.

Those were a joy to play (for RPG's), but if you try to artificially lengthen things out to where they are truly unenjoyable for months, well that is grind.

Yes, i agree. However it comes back to MW:O being free to play. Free to play model cannot work unless there is at least a small incentive for the player to spend hard currency. This can work in two ways, with premium content (things that can only be acquired with hard currency) or with "boosts".

Now, this depends on each individual, but personally i prefer boosts to premium content. This means that everything is unlocked for the player that wishes to play without spending cash. But in this case that "incentive" to go ahead and get a boost will always be there. And if the player has even a tiny bit of that sentiment "Oh, i wish this was faster ... its taking so long", then that is happening due to artificial lengthening. And this sentiment will be different in each person. Some people have higher stamina while others can't stand doing the same thing for too long.

Volthorne, on 03 June 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

And on that note, I direct you to this link which shows exactly what I mean by "trees". Small bonuses on a PER CHASSIS basis, or universal through your pilot and modules. Nothing to do with Tech or having more chassis made available.

But you are missing the part about "Elite X". Personally i am not sure on this one, but from what i have gathered some 'mechs will be available only after you reach these elite levels. You can have a X amount of different chassis for each class on "Elite 0", then more 'mech chassis on "Elite 1" and so forth.


To me this looks exactly like World of Tanks. Except that you will have to unlock everything for every variant of every chassis before you have access to the next level of chassis.

Edited by Renan Ruivo, 03 June 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Volthorne]

Renan Ruivo, on 03 June 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

But you are missing the part about "Elite X". Personally i am not sure on this one, but from what i have gathered some 'mechs will be available only after you reach these elite levels. You can have a X amount of different chassis for each class on "Elite 0", then more 'mech chassis on "Elite 1" and so forth.


To me this looks exactly like World of Tanks. Except that you will have to unlock everything for every variant of every chassis before you have access to the next level of chassis.

Those "Elite" bonuses are theoretically universal across all variants of that particular 'Mech. Still bonuses. Not a new Chassis or variant.

[Zack Delphirian]

Sorry, for once I don't have time to read all this (I'll read it tomorrow), but I need to say this before collapsing in my bed :

Hell NO ! You're not bringing Tiers to my precious MW:O ! Tiers is what destroyed WoT for me ! The simple fact that you can pretty much do nothing against a higher tier tank (2-3 tiers more) except serve as target practice for him is just the worst gameplay idea EVER

[MadBoris]

Renan Ruivo, on 03 June 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

"Oh, i wish this was faster ... its taking so long", then that is happening due to artificial lengthening. And this sentiment will be different in each person. Some people have higher stamina while others can't stand doing the same thing for too long.

That's a good point but It's not just stamina, there are many determining factors. What you describe, I call the convenience/inconvenience model.
WoT feels like a grind, an artificial lengthening in time/tiers/power (triple decker) Tribes to me, does not compare even close in lengthening time. I never felt I needed an expensive weapon early on. I don't feel artificial lengthening in Tribes, nor do I feel an over advantage for a paying player getting a 50% VIP XP boost.
The compromise is feeling ok to me, like not a huge compromise, I just expect a lot more content down the road.

There are many people that don't like tribes or it's model for many reasons, but to be able to have that gameplay back without too many F2P compromises has been fun. It's considered by many to be one of the better F2P models for a reason. To make a skilled based FPS like that playable on F2P is pretty good achievement. F2P games have had little interest to me up until a few recently good models.

If someoene can make the most amazing magical gaming experience ever, then maybe there need not be any hooks, let alone barbs, but alas it seems the lower the quality offering, often the more dirty tactics are used to monetize, Blizzard aside. I guess if you can have a deep fan control you can take advantage of it.

Edited by MadBoris, 03 June 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[Max Killjoy]

The less they bring over from WoT, the better.