63 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

It's been pointed out in many a thread, by myself and others:

Buffing individual mechs doesn't solve the problem. Adding collision or fixing hitboxes doesn't solve the problem. The problem was created when ECM was combined with Streaks. For 2 reasons:
1) Unless you have very good aiming skills and piloting skills combined, preferably with low ping, Streaks > Any other weapon against light mechs. Streak missiles can exit the tube, turn 180 degrees in 0.001 seconds, circle their target 5 times in the blink of an eye, and land neatly on its nose. That's plainly ridiculous.

2) Even if Streaks are OP vs light mechs, the Raven 3L wouldn't be OP if it couldn't prevent other mechs from using Streaks against it. It basically forces everyone else to use unguided weapons, while disabling their guided missiles and potentially reducing their armament or effectively disarming them entirely.

Improving small lasers to nerf the ECM - SSRM combo is like introducing foxes in Australia to get rid of rabbits. Forget the foxes. Nerf the OP rabbits.

[Asakara]

The Jenner is unchanged from when it was the "king" of lights. The raven itself is unchanged from when it was "fine". Streaks were common weapons for both mechs in competitive light vs light battles.

The change which made Jenners into jokers and Raven 3L into the royalty was ECM (the 2X and 4X remained junk). That one device all the sudden made that same jenner "fine" instead of the commonly posted "OMG game breaking OP" whine on the forums.. While the raven went from "fine" to "OMG game breaking OP" whines on the forums.

So to fix that you want to buff small lasers? No thanks. I did not believe it touches on the heart of the issue.

I say let Jenners use streaks against ECM shrouded ravens.

[Zervziel]

At the rate this is going we might as well add a button to press that activates the self-destruct on all ECM equipped mechs.

[Zylo]

Asakara, on 06 April 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The Jenner is unchanged from when it was the "king" of lights. The raven itself is unchanged from when it was "fine". Streaks were common weapons for both mechs in competitive light vs light battles.

The change which made Jenners into jokers and Raven 3L into the royalty was ECM (the 2X and 4X remained junk). That one device all the sudden made that same jenner "fine" instead of the commonly posted "OMG game breaking OP" whine on the forums.. While the raven went from "fine" to "OMG game breaking OP" whines on the forums.

So to fix that you want to buff small lasers? No thanks. I did not believe it touches on the heart of the issue.

I say let Jenners use streaks against ECM shrouded ravens.

They actually can do this and I have seen some Jenner D pilots mounting an ERPPC on 1 of the 4 energy hardpoints. It's not a great build but it does allow a Jenner to use Streaks against any ECM mech.

Edited by Zylo, 06 April 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Noobzorz]

Roadbeer, on 06 April 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Completely disagree.

Want to NERF the 3L?
Make NARC and it's other core components useful.

I know what you're getting at, but what you're getting at is wrong.

"Lets nerf X by expanding its set of options!"

Irrelevance of independent alternatives. People will still be able to run that same badass 3L, and you very likely just made it even better.

Someone proposed a very clever fix earlier, and it is so easy and elegant that I'm surprised it hasn't been implemented yet. Shift SSRM jam to the PPC.

Edited by Noobzorz, 06 April 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Tennex]

Asakara, on 06 April 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The Jenner is unchanged from when it was the "king" of lights. The raven itself is unchanged from when it was "fine". Streaks were common weapons for both mechs in competitive light vs light battles.

The change which made Jenners into jokers and Raven 3L into the royalty was ECM (the 2X and 4X remained junk). That one device all the sudden made that same jenner "fine" instead of the commonly posted "OMG game breaking OP" whine on the forums.. While the raven went from "fine" to "OMG game breaking OP" whines on the forums.

So to fix that you want to buff small lasers? No thanks. I did not believe it touches on the heart of the issue.

I say let Jenners use streaks against ECM shrouded ravens.

there was a change from the golden age of Jenners. 6 small laser jenners are no longer viable over 4 ML jenners.

6 sl jernner and 9 sl swaback don't become crap out of nowhere. there was a nerf to small lasers.

only jenners can mount large amount of small laser. the buff to small laser would not affect the 3L who has 3 hardpoints and would rather mount a larger medium laser.


teh wonderful thing about the hardpoint system is that buffing small weapons have no effect on bigger mechs because the big mech would rather mount a larger weapon. while the smaller mmech can mount greater amounts of small weapons. in this way the developers are able to keep mechs of all sizes viable.

same reason they should buff MGs.

Edited by Tennex, 06 April 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Papaspud]

I always thought a simple yet effective change would be really simple. Make it so when you are disrupting lock ons- you cant lock on.... then ravens would be back in line. Cant have it both ways.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tennex, on 06 April 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

i'm not sure what happened to the 6small laser jenners then lol. something must have happened for them not to be used anymore.

MG def needs a buff there are no other alternatives on light mechs

Double Heat Sinks happen. You can now feasibly run 4, if not 6, Medium Lasers.
To get back Small Laser Jenners and Hunchbacks, you will probably need to add extra energy slots to these mechs. 8 MLs are not workable on a DHS Jenner, but 8 Small Lasers would, and beat 6 Medium Lasers (by a small margin, but nevertheless.)

And ECM happenes. You don't need light mechs without ECM. I mean, they can still be nasty and all, but having ECM is just so much better.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 April 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Noobzorz, on 06 April 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I know what you're getting at, but what you're getting at is wrong.

"Lets nerf X by expanding its set of options!"

Irrelevance of independent alternatives. People will still be able to run that same badass 3L, and you very likely just made it even better.

Someone proposed a very clever fix earlier, and it is so easy and elegant that I'm surprised it hasn't been implemented yet. Shift SSRM jam to the PPC.

Go to Smurfy, and with the assumption that NARC and BAP are useful and desirable, try to build a 3L even close to what it is now.

[Tennex]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 April 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Double Heat Sinks happen. You can now feasibly run 4, if not 6, Medium Lasers.
To get back Small Laser Jenners and Hunchbacks, you will probably need to add extra energy slots to these mechs. 8 MLs are not workable on a DHS Jenner, but 8 Small Lasers would, and beat 6 Medium Lasers (by a small margin, but nevertheless.)

And ECM happenes. You don't need light mechs without ECM. I mean, they can still be nasty and all, but having ECM is just so much better.

thats right i forget about dbl heat sinks. Though buffing small lasers would have a minimal effect on game balance over all. it would add varity to the game builds.

after the buff only low tonnage mechs with many hard points would use them. its very niche. right now nobody uses small lasers i would love to see them viable.

[Suprentus]

What? Small lasers are great as they are. I use a few builds that depend on them. If any laser needs to be buffed, it's the small pulse laser.

The Jenner is already stronger than the Raven. I load up a Jenner D with 4 small lasers and 2 srm 4s. It's great at guerrilla warfare against larger mechs. My philosophy is that if you see one chassis that performs a certain role better than the chassis you want, then figure out a different role that it can perform better at. As a fast guerrilla fighter, the Jenner can be perfect at that while the Raven struggles to damage anything other than other lights.

[shintakie]

Roadbeer, on 06 April 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

You mean the second launcher that is supposed to be used for NARC? The system that's underwhelming, the reason there is only one tube for that missile slot?

Is that the launcher you're talking about removing?

The idea would be the 3L would only end up havin 1 SSRM2 at most, which makes its firepower extremely underwhelmin compared to some other lights. It'd still be outright better than the other 2 variants for other reasons, but it'd be worth a shot.

[Zylo]

shintakie, on 06 April 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

The idea would be the 3L would only end up havin 1 SSRM2 at most, which makes its firepower extremely underwhelmin compared to some other lights. It'd still be outright better than the other 2 variants for other reasons, but it'd be worth a shot.

This would probably result in the increase of Commando 2D's running around with 3x SSRM2 + a laser of some type.

[Bishop Steiner]

Completely disagree

Small laser is supposed to be near useless. 6 small and 9 small versions were amongst the worst cheese in closed beta.

Ravens use a whopping 2 lasers. Jenners, 4-6. Jenner already wins the light fight. Especially since missiles are currently a joke. Make Narc useful, or instead of being a missile slot, give Narc (and TAG) DEDICATED SLOTS, like and or ecm. And as many have suggested for months make streaks and ecm mutually exclusive.

Problem solved without buffing or nerfing anything else.

People want to nerf/buff so much the game is becoming YoYoWarrior Online.

[Pale Jackal]

Yes, you don't need to run 6 SL Jenners because you can run 4 ML / 2 SL Jenners perfectly fine.

Streaks are part of the problem, but mainly in light versus light fights, the fact that long ranged combat is now very viable reduces the potency of 'mechs like the A1 Streakapult.

There should be improved counters to ECM. BAP should penetrate ECM at 270m or 450m assuming the target is within LOS.

[Ph30nix]

turning the Narc and Tag into item slots would also screw over alot of other mechs.

How about people actually think before suggeting things that would do more harm then good just because they hate a particular mech.

gets some changes to ECM and the 3L will be fine. Honestly the jenner should have little trouble with a 3L assuming they can aim focus on the legs with your mediums and the 3L is dead.

or instead of mounting SSRM's yourself use regular SRM's and aim with those you can actualy get more damage out of SRM's then SSRM anyways.

[Roadbeer]

Ph30nix, on 06 April 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

turning the Narc and Tag into item slots would also screw over alot of other mechs.

How about people actually think before suggeting things that would do more harm then good just because they hate a particular mech.

gets some changes to ECM

ECM Fine, 3L fine, IW/RW needs buff. Stop looking at the symptoms and start looking at the disease.

[Dr Killinger]

While I'm of the opinion tha ***'s ECM and Streaks that are the actual problem, I would rework the 3L (it just has too much offense for an ECM mech).

Personally, I'd make TAG and NARC slots hardpoints, similar to AMS, so that there is a reason to take specific mech models, while not allowing them to be replaced with offensive weapons.

[Rotaugen]

I've been running my Founder's Jenner for the c-bills this weekend, and I've offed a LOT of Ravens who didn't seem to fear the Jenner anymore. Our side had 4 Ravens once, and they thought it made them invulnerable. They died quickly. I have all the Jenners and Ravens, and I prefer to run the Jenners.

[Bishop Steiner]

@Noobzorze

I am hoping I am totally misreading your post, because if I'm not, it's just plain stupid.

You want to shift the ecm shield from effecting ssrm to somehow blocking PPCs? Or that PPC shot would now disable the targeting of ssrms? (and why not lrms too?). Both are pretty patently silly. Even if I agree ecm does too much for its weight, the purpose is to jam and counter electronics. This makes more sense for spoofing missiles than a PPC shot would. Especially when electronics have to be hardened to allow them to fiction so close the magnetic containment field of the reactor, and to he able to fire lasers and ppcs of their own.


lease tell me that is not so, and if I am misunderstanding, perhaps spell it out a little more clearly.

Far simpler and more elegant is that ssrm/lrm and ecm simply cannot be mounted together. (or that they cannot be fired while the ecm unit is online. And the ecm should have a 5-10 second spool up window so it can't just keep flipping the switch) If the raven and commando had to carry dumbfire missiles they would immediately fall back in step with the Jenner.