63 replies to this topic

[Josef Nader]

ECM + Streak synergy is the real culprit. They work too well together. Simply make it so that ECM in disrupt prevents friendly -and- enemy locks, and the 3L is no longer overpowering in light v. light fights.

[Kristov Kerensky]

What actually made the Jenner and Hunchback loaded with small lasers so nasty was NOT the power of the small laser, as that hasn't changed, but the speed cap and engine caps. No longer can those 2 Mechs exceed the speed of sound and stay on the rear of any Mech in the game blasting away with those small lasers.

That's what changed the 'viability' of those builds..not ECM or DHS, just the speed cap and engine caps.

ECM isn't broken, it's not OP, it just removes 1 set of weapons from the equation, lockon guided missiles like LRMs and SSRMs. All the other weapons work just fine when ECM is in use. 3Ls became OP due to the hitbox issue it had and the netcode issues which made hitting them in the first place a total CharlieFrank. The rewind state for lasers made clear that Light Mechs weren't OP, but the Raven was still a problem child due to the hitbox issues it had. They fixed the hitboxes and now..well..Raven 3Ls run from my Spider 5D with it's medium lasers because they can't hit me with their Streaks unless they counter. Streaks are now an annoyance, which is ALL they should be, instead of the killers they were. And the fact that my lasers HIT and tear up the Raven now, while most 3L pilots can't hit the ground with a laser if they drop it..they run for help or they die.

And who the hells told you ECM was only for Scouts? ECM is a mainstay on most armored vehicles in modern militaries, even TANKS carry it for pity's sake, it's a must have in a battlefield where information and denial of information is as important as it is today..and would be 1000 years from now. I always put ECM on my Mechs in TT, didn't care what I had to give up for it, and that's ECM that doesn't do as much as it does in MWO, it's still THAT powerful of a tool in TT. Enemy doesn't know where you are...that is a powerful thing in combat.

[Ph30nix]

Dr Killinger, on 06 April 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

While I'm of the opinion tha ***'s ECM and Streaks that are the actual problem, I would rework the 3L (it just has too much offense for an ECM mech).

Personally, I'd make TAG and NARC slots hardpoints, similar to AMS, so that there is a reason to take specific mech models, while not allowing them to be replaced with offensive weapons.

umm you do realize the 2D has 2 missle hard points so if streaks are such a problem it can fit 3 of them

Edited by Ph30nix, 06 April 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Bishop Steiner: your suggestion to institute a small delay between ECM modes is inspired. It sounds like a very good way to lessen ECM supremacy as well as make the ECM& Streak combo less crazy.

[SirLANsalot]

small lasers weren't nerfed, they were relegated to what they should be. Piece of crap. Its not because of the damage of them, no, even if they did 8 damage instead of 3 they still would be useless. its because of the RANGE, 90m is very close and one you MUST get into to use your guns. For a half ton gun thats not bad, but when its big brother the medium laser, for half a ton more, gets 3x the optimal range, AND falloff. Ya thats why the SL swayback died off, the ML ones were better in every way, and the stacking penalty still is in effect, for ALL Energy, it wasn't on SL only.

90m useless gun, only as a placeholder to give the Medium laser its name.

[Taemien]

Small Laser boats were never a threat in Closed Beta. It was simply a few people who didn't know how to manage heat and found a way to do consistent damage to newbies. The weapons were never nerfed, the newbies simply became vets.

18 firepower Jenners with a range of 90 is always going to lose to a Raven with the same firepower with the range of 270. Use bigger weapons like medium lasers. It does work.

[Zylo]

This thread seems to have lost a few posts...

Anyway, I don't think a delay between ECM modes would do anything but encourage ECM mechs to work as a team. I generally play a light teamed with another member of my corp, usually running 2x Raven 3L or Raven 3L + Commando 2D. We could easily run with 1 in disrupt and the other in counter to get around any sort of delay.

I think just making the lock tolerance a bit tighter would solve some of the problems and increasing the turn radius of SSRM2's would solve the rest. It would encourage more hit and run tactics rather than encouraging circling.

[Bishop Steiner]

that m

Zylo, on 06 April 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

This thread seems to have lost a few posts...

Anyway, I don't think a delay between ECM modes would do anything but encourage ECM mechs to work as a team. I generally play a light teamed with another member of my corp, usually running 2x Raven 3L or Raven 3L + Commando 2D. We could easily run with 1 in disrupt and the other in counter to get around any sort of delay.

I think just making the lock tolerance a bit tighter would solve some of the problems and increasing the turn radius of SSRM2's would solve the rest. It would encourage more hit and run tactics rather than encouraging circling.

that much MORE coordination among the lights makes their strategies that much more limited. It removes the "Easy Mode" ECM currently offers, because its flip and fry. Which is why even lousy pilots do well in the 3L. If you have people who have to work in tandem to that degree, that makes their ability to maintain their plan that much more difficult, and each link tht much more vulnerable if it's broke. Right now, 1 ECM can deny huge areas to some weapons. Having to juggle 3-4 working in tandem IN combat?

Sorry, most of the Epeens strokers on here aren't THAT good.

[Zylo]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 April 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

that much MORE coordination among the lights makes their strategies that much more limited. It removes the "Easy Mode" ECM currently offers, because its flip and fry. Which is why even lousy pilots do well in the 3L. If you have people who have to work in tandem to that degree, that makes their ability to maintain their plan that much more difficult, and each link tht much more vulnerable if it's broke. Right now, 1 ECM can deny huge areas to some weapons. Having to juggle 3-4 working in tandem IN combat?

Sorry, most of the Epeens strokers on here aren't THAT good.

I think this would just lead to more whining from solo players.

As a group player the delay could be quite effective. I could certainly live with this sort of delay since I always run in groups. It could actually provide a significant advantage in some cases against an uncoordinated enemy team.

Edited by Zylo, 06 April 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Blue Shadow]

Roadbeer, on 06 April 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Completely disagree.

Want to NERF the 3L?
Make NARC and it's other core components useful.

Yes please! I'd buy back a 3L if it was worth using with all it's scouting/support gear.

[Pale Jackal]

While its true that the ECM / Streak synergy is particularly glaring, ECM is overpowered.

How do you know ECM is overpowered? Because you should ALWAYS spend the 1.5 tons and 2 slots on it.

[Zylo]

Pale Jackal, on 06 April 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

While its true that the ECM / Streak synergy is particularly glaring, ECM is overpowered.

How do you know ECM is overpowered? Because you should ALWAYS spend the 1.5 tons and 2 slots on it.

I think you need to look at WHY players NEED to spend the 1.5 tons. Once you do that you will see the real OP equipment: SSRM2's (in the past LRMs were also included as OP but now they are weak).

[Malora Sidewinder]

Tennex, on 06 April 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

by bringing back the apex preditors of yesteryear. you will be suprised how effective it is to nerf the 3L


the 3L should not be directly nerfed. it was never an issue befrore ECM. meaning the 3L itself is isn't inherently OP

the 3l isn't as powerful as the jenner is. it's not as fast, has less armor, and has less raw firepower since the missile nerf.

Combined with HSR, a good jenner pilot vs a good raven pilot, the jenner will usually win. a pack of jenners is far more devastating to non LRM/Streak teams than an equivalent team of ravens would be.

[Zylo]

Josef Nader, on 06 April 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

ECM + Streak synergy is the real culprit. They work too well together. Simply make it so that ECM in disrupt prevents friendly -and- enemy locks, and the 3L is no longer overpowering in light v. light fights.

The only problem I see with this is the occasional player that doesn't have a clue how ECM works. It will probably lead to some serious rage by the team in situations where they have the advantage but some new player doesn't know that his ECM is blocking friendly locks.

Veteran light pilot: OMG n00b, switch your ECM to counter so we can kill this ******* Jenner!!!

n00b light pilot: **** you, I didn't know my ECM blocked your locks too, things worked just fine last week!


Now if ECM in disrupt blocked locks ONLY for the ECM carrying mech this idea would probably work pretty good.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Pale Jackal, on 06 April 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

I am pretty sure this diminishing return nerf was never actually implemented. It was considered, but it was never put in place.

Do I think small lasers could use a small buff? Yes. Machine guns could also use a huge buff - it would increase the number of viable light variants.

ECM needs to be broken up into 3 components that take 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots each. I like that they made ECM so game-changing, but mounting ECM is a no-brainer. If you want to be a dedicated scout / team cloaker, you should have to sacrifice something for it.

If you just want to scout, you can mount the "Cloaking Component" - if you want to counter all ECM nearby you can mount the "Counter Component" and if you want to cloak your entire team, you can mount the "Cloaking + Group Cloaking" components (so a minimum of 3 tons and 4 slots, with the option to mount the Counter component).

I have brought this up time and time again.....just separate the ECM into 2 modules...

Angel ECM and Guardian ECM. Angel ecm can mask surrounding units like the ecm does now, but the carrier is visible like normal...Guardian ecm reduces your dection range, but you will be targetable inside a certain range, but it only works for the carring mech. Lock on times vs guardian ecm mechs is also increased, even vs BAP mechs, however BAP carriers can pick you up a little further out than non-bap carriers. And of course, a restriction preventing you from mounting both modules on the same mech.


Limit the mechs that can carry either module and BLAMMO, balance...streaks will be usueful again in running off ballsy 3L jocks that used to routinely solo atlasas, yet scout mechs or ecm support mechs will still have a role to fullfil, and one team having ecm while the other doesnt wont be a guanteed "GG" anymore

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 06 April 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[Bagheera]

Tennex, on 06 April 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

i'm not sure what happened to the 6small laser jenners then lol. something must have happened for them not to be used anymore.

Double heat sinks, endo-steel, and FF armor happened to them. SL Jenners and Hunchies were good before those things were implemented in the game. Once we got L2 tech those same mechs started using MLs, mostly. Not necessarily 6 or 9 of them, but still more than they would have prior to L2 tech. Which is when those were dominant builds, back in CB.

[jay35]

Holy crap, we did it! Our PUG team beat a team despite it having FOUR 3Ls! I didn't think it was possible!


It was a really good and close game, and well fought.

My guess is those four 3Ls were not a 4-some, which explains why we were able to beat them. If they were all in sync on voice comms, they'd more likely be impossible to stop, as is typically the outcome in such a situation.

Big props go to the Matchmaker for setting us up against a team with FIVE ECM mechs to our one.

Edited by jay35, 06 April 2013 - 09:34 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Those had to be some pretty bad 3L jocks for that result to happen. most pug games i deal with will die to just 2 of those. they dont even have to coordinate. Usually about mid-fight ill get "Low signal" and my team starts dropping like flies while i frantically look around and try to single out ecm carrier.....

[Josef Nader]

Zylo, on 06 April 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

The only problem I see with this is the occasional player that doesn't have a clue how ECM works. It will probably lead to some serious rage by the team in situations where they have the advantage but some new player doesn't know that his ECM is blocking friendly locks.

Veteran light pilot: OMG n00b, switch your ECM to counter so we can kill this ******* Jenner!!!

n00b light pilot: **** you, I didn't know my ECM blocked your locks too, things worked just fine last week!


Now if ECM in disrupt blocked locks ONLY for the ECM carrying mech this idea would probably work pretty good.

Yeah, there is some griefing potential there. However, ECM having a real downside like that would give people a reason to -not- spend the 1.5 tons to put it on. It can be just as disruptive to your allies as to your enemies if not managed carefully. It presents an interesting choice, rather than the "well of course I'm going to work ECM into the build!" mindset.

[EvilCow]

Considering how the Cataput A1 and K2 have been "fixed", PLEASE, don't do to the 3L anything that would also affect the 2X and the 4X, those certainly don't need any nerf.