49 replies to this topic

[phelan spider]

Game 1: Clearly premade with names I recognize. At last on my team so we roll.
Game 2: I was top damage but zero kills; folks knew what they were doing
Game 3: What it should be. 4 players on both teams <100 damage. Funny thing I did 800 damage and other team had another dragan do 4 kills and 800 damage...another one like me? Saw LRMS fire point blank, face huggers, and people running into my shots (cross fields of view); all good newbie behaviour
Game 4: Other team was highly coordinated and had very good phrats who knew how to play. Run as a group and chewed people up. Definitely newbs on my team when you see three opponents drilling someone's back and they do not turn around but obviously at least 3 vets on other team.

Conclusion. It is like ELO is not there. Getting teamed up with a wide mix of skill. Seeing premades. Seeing names I normally see on my main account. Seeing coordination. All bad for a "new player".

Edited by phelan spider, 07 April 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[jeffsw6]

I believe if the game ever gets integrated VOIP it will be an equalizing force. Newbies will be able to cooperate more effectively, and pre-mades won't have an exclusive on the most over-powered force in the game (teamwork.)

The match-maker should just make 4-mans wait for an opposing 4-man before it will let them drop. It should never be okay for a 4-man to go against 8 PUG players, even if that means the 4-man has to wait several minutes between drops.

[Ghogiel]

phelan spider, on 06 April 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

When I asked players, many said they had been playing "for months" and several self characterized as "good players". Why would a new player, who should have terrible ELO, get matches like this?

a: New players start with a average neutral Elo rating. Not a terrible one. Meaning they are in the middle of the pack and are adjusted from there.

b: The players who said they were good actually aren't.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

ELO shouldnt be a factor for the first 20-30 matches. Should be trial mech only. Let everyone get their feet wet on equal footing. If someone makes a new account to grief they are still stuck in a trial mech.

Also keep in mind someone can tank their ELO if they really want to grief anyway.

[Ghogiel]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

ELO shouldnt be a factor for the first 20-30 matches. Should be trial mech only. Let everyone get their feet wet on equal footing. If someone makes a new account to grief they are still stuck in a trial mech.

Also keep in mind someone can tank their ELO if they really want to grief anyway.

MWO hasn't that many new players running trial mechs at any given time to regularly fill an 8v8 with them.

[phelan spider]

Ghogiel, on 07 April 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

MWO hasn't that many new players running trial mechs at any given time to regularly fill an 8v8 with them.

I agree; I see 1-2 on each side. Trial mechs should have strong weight to be put in same match (only not high ELO to avoid trolls).

Also agree re VOIP. PGI wants to improve new player experience, put VOIP in dummies. Funny thing is they started to put in it last August but then lost interest and have never done anything since.

Edited by phelan spider, 07 April 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ghogiel, on 07 April 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

MWO hasn't that many new players running trial mechs at any given time to regularly fill an 8v8 with them.

If we don't have 16 new players almost constantly playing or trying out the game we might as well stop this conversation because we are ******.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

For reference 16 new players per day for a year is only about 6000 new players. If you only retained half it would mean 3000 player per year growth. And if only half spent money that's 1500 more paying customers per year. That would be terrible.

[Ghogiel]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 April 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

For reference 16 new players per day for a year is only about 6000 new players. If you only retained half it would mean 3000 player per year growth. And if only half spent money that's 1500 more paying customers per year. That would be terrible.

Just assuming the following> the average newbie stays in a trial mech for ~20 matches, the average match lasts 7mins.

You'd need at least 100 newbies playing in trial mechs every day.

Edited by Ghogiel, 07 April 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I think average match would be longer in all trial mechs. And 100 new players everyday is about right to combat people like me who quit. And most of those 100 wont be money spenders.

If they cant pull off a new player queue this game is done.

[Ghogiel]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 April 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

I think average match would be longer in all trial mechs. And 100 new players everyday is about right to combat people like me who quit. And most of those 100 wont be money spenders.

If they cant pull off a new player queue this game is done.

I guess the game was done months ago then. It ain't getting a new player queue because there isn't enough new players on all the time to fill 8v8s let alone the upcoming 12v12s regularly 24/7.

Perhaps a compromise would be to throw as many noobs as possible into the same matches then fill the rest out with similar Elo rated players.

But with the serveral different upcoming queues, like 3rd persons, the different game modes, and perhaps regions, and knowing that some times of the day the 8 man queue is actually nearly deserted for a few hours a day, just makes me think all these extra queues are bad news.

And lets face it... Elo has a hard enough time placing people who have already played hundreds and hundreds of matches in a given weight class and have a 2 or 3 wins per loss average. I'm in matches with steel jaguars and kaos legion 4mans and then it's noobs everywhere. I swear, once I actually had a trial jenner on my team asking me if he did ok cos he was new and we are playing against some of the best teams in the game. so, yeah, stuff.

Edited by Ghogiel, 07 April 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[Gristle]

Ghogiel, on 07 April 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

.... I swear, once I actually had a trial jenner on my team asking me if he did ok cos he was new and we are playing against some of the best teams in the game. so, yeah, stuff.

This should never happen...and PGI is all on about making the new user experience better with 3rd person, simplified controls, breadcrumbs, etc. None of that will matter if a brand new player is pitted against experienced 4 man groups in optimized builds.

Edited by Gristle, 07 April 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[EgoSlayer]

phelan spider, on 06 April 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

<snip>

When I asked players, many said they had been playing "for months" and several self characterized as "good players". Why would a new player, who should have terrible ELO, get matches like this?

My general conclusion is that ELO was matching a new player to much better players with much more experience. Either ELO is broken or there were just not many people on a Saturday night (prime time I assume).

The issue is that the truly average player should be around an Elo of 1300. And new players start at 1300, so the chances are the people who thought they were really good players are probably really just average.Dunning–Kruger effect

Belorion, on 06 April 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

I think elo starts players off at the median level.

It should probably start people off at the 40 percentile mark.

This would probably be a much better starting point, Elo of about 960. The learning curve is kind of steep for people who haven't played a MW game, and the trial mechs are a handicap on top of that. Starting new players lower in the scale would help them, and the "good" players who complain about matches filled with new players.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 07 April 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Screech]

Have played over 250 matches in trials over the months on various accounts I have a fairly good grasp on their performance. All light trial mechs are garbage. A stock light is just not viable in this game even against other stock mechs. Typically of the other 3 mechs 2 will be adequate. They will run hot and be under armored but you will at least have a chance. On the first 25 games on a new account generally run between .6-1.5 KDR pugging on trials.(did pull a 2.8 once but not sure how)

Really they just need to make the lights better and trials are fine, not great or good just fine.

[Royalewithcheese]

Screech, on 07 April 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

All light trial mechs are garbage.

81 KPH Raven with Machine Guns?



...and worse, it's a trap that only a new player would fall into. Not cool, person who picks the trial mechs.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Elo is broke!
The only thing it does is make shure to put you agains OP teams if you win enough. Any system that "cheats" to make shure you cant win when you win is BFS!

[Royalewithcheese]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 07 April 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

The only thing it does is make shure to put you agains OP teams if you win enough.

Wait so why is it bad that Elo matches you against good players if you're good?

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Royalewithcheese, on 07 April 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Wait so why is it bad that Elo matches you against BETTER players if your good to insure you have a 50-50 win/lose rate and takes skill completly out of the equation.

fixed

[krash27]

Gristle, on 07 April 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

This should never happen...and PGI is all on about making the new user experience better with 3rd person, simplified controls, breadcrumbs, etc. None of that will matter if a brand new player is pitted against experienced 4 man groups in optimized builds.

Imagine the view of his own mech said noob will have with 3PV when a highly coordinated and motivated team shreds him piece by piece!

[EgoSlayer]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 07 April 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Elo is broke!
The only thing it does is make shure to put you agains OP teams if you win enough. Any system that "cheats" to make shure you cant win when you win is BFS!

Except that's not how Elo works. It never "cheats", and it doesn't look at your W/L record to "make sure" you lose.

It looks at your current Elo score and the odds of if you should have won or lost the current match. That's it.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 07 April 2013 - 12:39 PM.