135 replies to this topic

[Mackman]

Lonestar1771, on 08 April 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

deleted

But what can you, the master, possibly learn from him? You're the one bashing those who make a living with E-sports, with no other logic than "they probably don't hit the weight room, so it's not worthy of my respect." You're the one who comes into a thread, contributes nothing, and mocks those who are trying to contribute to it.

You may not like E-sports, but you know what? Literally millions of people tuned in to the League of Legends Season 2 finals. Do they require the same sort of physical coordination that, say football or soccer does? Of course not. But then again, I'd like to see a professional football or soccer player achieve the same kind of meaningful, precise APM as a pro Starcraft 2 player, or the same precision and strategy of the top LoL teams.

E-sports are here, they're growing in popularity, and your [redacted] isn't going to change a thing about it. I hope you're ok with that... otherwise, you're gonna have a bad time.

Edited by miSs, 09 April 2013 - 07:49 AM.
quote-clean up

[Forestal]

Royalewithcheese, on 08 April 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

And that, ladies and gents, is why advertising works.

Yeah, I was also attracted by all the fan-made videos of MWO showing ponderous mechs waging heavy warfare-- then I join the game and realized that all the fan-made video used SLOW-MOTION every chance they got... So yeah, you fans making those awesome MWO video-- you guys are just adding to the general disappointment.

Edited by Forestal, 09 April 2013 - 07:02 AM.

[Gallowglas]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I shutter a little bit.

With as many River City Night drops as MWO seems to rotate, that might be a problem. Try opening it up a bit. Maybe f2.8 @ 15 seconds w/ ISO 400.

[Slaytronic]

Elandyll, on 08 April 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

OP, I do not disagree with your points, I will just say that they do not suport your main claim (Mwo not being competitive - I adress that point farther below).

Your bullet points do not make MWO non competitive, they simply make it a hot mess of balance (aka terribly unbalanced mess).
- If by Weapon convergence you mean min/maxing, then yes, quite obviously. But that's pretty much a given, unless circumstances vary too widely and that you have to account for them (a balancing act that started with larger maps, but is still too far and few to really count, and the LRM / SRM nerfing, while needed, didn't help in that regard), you always have all interest to Maximize your Alpha in a game where there is no in match repairs, where damage is king, and a dead Mech is a Mech that doesn't do damage.

- Repair & Rearm was always an horrible way to balance out Mechs, and I am glad it is gone in spite of "realism". The actual effect of R&R was that the most succesfull players with premium time were able to just do fine in their best Mechs, while people struggling could not even afford to be in new and optimized Mechs, thus putting themselves at a disadvantage against better/ more experienced players who could afford to bring out their best (most decked out) Mechs. The devs tried to balance the economy by either flowing c-bills or starving them, but it wasn't working.
It was a complete vicious circle, rife with unbalances, and it's better gone, at least with the way the game is currently designed.

- Variants: Are some Variants non competitive? Yes. The problem is when some chassis are entirely non competitive. but as long as even 1 version of 1 chassis is, the rest is fine for Fun/ Canon purposes.
Imo the current competitive Mechs with at least 1 good version are:
Atlas
Stalker
Awesome
Cataphract
Catapult
Jagermech
Hunchback
Trebuchet
Centurion
Raven
Commando

The ones that could imo use some Tuning:
Dragon
Cicada
Spider

Now, as per your main point: MWO is not competitive

Well, no, it is definitely not. Just not mainly for the reasons listed until now.

Imo, the reasons why MWO isn't anywhere near being a competitive online shooter are many, but here are a few:

- No ladder ranking (duh, that's a given for competition, don't you think? Should be opt in though)
- No lobby / setting up of matching conditions. It's all random besides the "Type" of game (which are two variants of CTF)
- No in game guild/ clan support. It's only current function is ... a Friends list. Lol.
- No in game VOIP
- No real "working" matchmaker. MWO's Elo system is broken as can be, and the wrong system to use in a team based game to start with.

Many of these are "work in progress" and are planned for "sometime" in the future, but for a game that has been in development for years, and that will have been in "Open Beta" for nearly 7 months, its content and features are just horribly poor atm. Luckily, it also has some positives (Mech design & Piloting "feel" are some of the few) otherwise between the bugs (some have been present for months, others appearing randomly, and yet others being introduced with new patches) and the blatant lack of content (2 modes, 6 maps) MWO would have deservedly circled down the drain a while ago already.

yeah sure buddy bring your commando into a 8 man

[Juree Riggd]

Min maxing isn't the problem, it's the core mechanic of competitive play.

If you want to follow lore and only use weapons that you think are cool instead of weapons that statistically will win with the right person behind them, then don't play competitively.

[Slaytronic]

Dudeman3k, on 08 April 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I have an AKO to prove I am in your "modern military force" lol. care to say that one more time please??

Then why don't you know the facts he posted? now you just sound stupid.

[DocBach]

Slaytronic, on 09 April 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Then why don't you know the facts he posted? now you just sound stupid.

actually, he sounds like a paying customer who'd like to see some resemblance of balance and utility brought to other items than the flavor of the month cheese we see everywhere.

[Juree Riggd]

Quit with the cheese crap. Learn that whatever build you thought up in your head and decided was the best to use may not beat every single build in the game. People play certain builds because it helps them WIN.

[Accursed Richards]

Pihoqahiak, on 08 April 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Keep in mind that at times when Magic the Gathering had extremely narrow options for viable decks in competitive play the competitive scene suffered a very large drop in the number of players that entered tournament play until they addressed the problem. That drop in the number of players in the competitive scene affected sales for the game to the point where Wizards of the Coast was forced to really look at the issue and address the problem to turn around the drop in sales. The same thing does and will happen in any competitive environment. If it's too narrow and repetitive, it wears thin quickly. Players become bored and move on to something more varied, diverse and entertaining.

There's a story about how in one tournament final, both decks consisted of 20 Black Lotus, 20 Channel and 20 Fireball, and it was finally decided when one played got a bad draw and failed to kill their opponent on the first turn.

There's always going to be a best and worst, and players are always going to gravitate towards the best. But in a balanced game, the best and worse options don't have the gulf between them that we see with a stock Cicada vs a Streak-ECM-Raven. Ideally, when the power gap between options is narrow, it comes down to skill, rather than the skill of just checking the forums for the One True Build.

[ArmageddonKnight]

In simple terms i think its safe to say
'untill the game is balanced it isnt a competative game worthy of consideration to the e-sport club'

I know theres more to it but... 2 main requirments for a game to be a possible competative e-sport game is:
1) it requirs and rewards a players Skill
2) the game is balanced.

This is why most ,if not all, MMORPG's are not e-sports ..they usualy lack the 1st one, most of them also lack the second.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 11 April 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[3rdworld]

ArmageddonKnight, on 11 April 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

In simple terms i think its safe to say
'untill the game is balanced it isnt a competative game worthy of consideration to the e-sport club'

I know theres more to it but... 2 main requirments for a game to be a possible competative e-sport game is:
1) it requirs and rewards a players Skill
2) the game is balanced.

This is why most ,if not all, MMORPG's are not e-sports ..they usualy lack the 1st one, most of them also lack the second.

3) not game-brakingly full of bugs

[ArmageddonKnight]

well yes but thats for released games. .this is beta

[aniviron]

sj mausgmr, on 07 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Here's my response in bullet points because busy.

- If it wasn't alpha strike it would be DPS, min maxing happens in any game.
- It's more about the team loadout in competitive play than the individual loadout - lots of loadouts have 'jobs', you have to balance the range of these roles accordingly.
- precision fire can vary when you take different weapon speeds into effect, the common alpha cata 3d actually suffers because of a speed difference between ppc and gauss that cannot be compensated for against a moving target without volley firing.
- not having double armour would mean my 8 man of coordinated experienced players would cut apart 8 enemy mechs in under a minute with little difficulty, this would mean a large portion of people would stop playing the game.
-Endo steel means some high heat laser boats cannot manage their heat due to lack of slots, it is by no means 'mandatory', just recommended and build based.
- ECM is far from god in competitive play because A) organised players don't need a radar to go "shoot the lead Atlas in the head" it isn't mounted on that many 'useful' chassis, C) I'd rather take more guns over ECM, and D) if an enemy group with ECM 'surprise' you your doing it wrong.
- Some mech variants are bad, some are good, that's typical of a lot of games with a lot of options, that aren't purely designed to be 100% perfectly competitive from the offset (starcraft is one of the few real examples of this). How many 'bad' guns were there in counterstrike? how about bad set ups in Guild Wars?

tldr : Play competitively because it's better than pubbing.

Someone give this man an internet for understanding how gaming works.

[Khell DarkWolf]

You know whats really wrong with the competitiveness in this game?

It kinda ties in more with the way the mechanics are played in this game.

Fact:

• We play in a constrained map with boundries
  
• The larger maps are big yes, but to that extent those maps and all other maps are still small.
  
• The maps on their own are considered more akin to "Arenas" then being a full fledged map because of the boundries
  
• Maps are randomized and cannot be chosen *see below*
  
• The number of maps are limited. No, nighttime versions and extra snow doesn't count as a new map. So no real distinctiveness for an impending Community warfare for battling on different planets.
  
• Because we are constrained to an Arena map and are random, loadouts are skewed to be built a certain way because of how the first maps were introduced and everyone cries about the change from short to long range vice versa
  
• If and when community warfare comes out, if you could have more flexibility in hot dropping from orbit if the map was large enough to actually travel around like similar to the original Mechwarriors. It would make for more interesting battles. WIth the limited pool of maps and size we have, this will not happen since it takes them 3 months to produce just 1 map. MW:LL had this nailed down decently well
  
• The considered "junk weapons" have no place because of how they interact in this environment they have been brought in and the mechanics of how they are currently implemented in this game which the devs are basing their balance to compare against (in other words, if the other aspects of the game were different. The dynamics could be different for the equipment that could work)
  
• Because the weapons are still not balanced, there is not much room to utilize all the weapon hard points. If your lucky to be able to use them all on a certain mech variant, it has been proven already the mechs that cannot use all those hardpoints are dead weight compared to another variant that actually can use them all to maximum potential since the weapons need tweaking
  
• Did I also mention how much of a lack there is to mech choices??? >_>

[Xmith]

DocBach, on 07 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Wow man, for a 35 year old your reading comprehension really sucks, then.

Your skills equate to cookie cutter flavor of the month builds where none of the features we were told were going to be included (and viable for fun gameplay) have a place in this game, where all builds more or less are the exact same, goaded into roles that frankly a whole lot of players don't find enjoyable.

That's cool, though, PGI didn't need the support of paying customers, anyways.

As a spectator, I have yet to see a build like mine.

[Chemie]

R&R was not a counter to endo and definitely not to DHS. That is silly (but I agree that DHS is manatory and that drives less diversity in builds)