135 replies to this topic

[Elandyll]

OP, I do not disagree with your points, I will just say that they do not suport your main claim (Mwo not being competitive - I adress that point farther below).

Your bullet points do not make MWO non competitive, they simply make it a hot mess of balance (aka terribly unbalanced mess).
- If by Weapon convergence you mean min/maxing, then yes, quite obviously. But that's pretty much a given, unless circumstances vary too widely and that you have to account for them (a balancing act that started with larger maps, but is still too far and few to really count, and the LRM / SRM nerfing, while needed, didn't help in that regard), you always have all interest to Maximize your Alpha in a game where there is no in match repairs, where damage is king, and a dead Mech is a Mech that doesn't do damage.

- Repair & Rearm was always an horrible way to balance out Mechs, and I am glad it is gone in spite of "realism". The actual effect of R&R was that the most succesfull players with premium time were able to just do fine in their best Mechs, while people struggling could not even afford to be in new and optimized Mechs, thus putting themselves at a disadvantage against better/ more experienced players who could afford to bring out their best (most decked out) Mechs. The devs tried to balance the economy by either flowing c-bills or starving them, but it wasn't working.
It was a complete vicious circle, rife with unbalances, and it's better gone, at least with the way the game is currently designed.

- Variants: Are some Variants non competitive? Yes. The problem is when some chassis are entirely non competitive. but as long as even 1 version of 1 chassis is, the rest is fine for Fun/ Canon purposes.
Imo the current competitive Mechs with at least 1 good version are:
Atlas
Stalker
Awesome
Cataphract
Catapult
Jagermech
Hunchback
Trebuchet
Centurion
Raven
Commando

The ones that could imo use some Tuning:
Dragon
Cicada
Spider

Now, as per your main point: MWO is not competitive

Well, no, it is definitely not. Just not mainly for the reasons listed until now.

Imo, the reasons why MWO isn't anywhere near being a competitive online shooter are many, but here are a few:

- No ladder ranking (duh, that's a given for competition, don't you think? Should be opt in though)
- No lobby / setting up of matching conditions. It's all random besides the "Type" of game (which are two variants of CTF)
- No in game guild/ clan support. It's only current function is ... a Friends list. Lol.
- No in game VOIP
- No real "working" matchmaker. MWO's Elo system is broken as can be, and the wrong system to use in a team based game to start with.

Many of these are "work in progress" and are planned for "sometime" in the future, but for a game that has been in development for years, and that will have been in "Open Beta" for nearly 7 months, its content and features are just horribly poor atm. Luckily, it also has some positives (Mech design & Piloting "feel" are some of the few) otherwise between the bugs (some have been present for months, others appearing randomly, and yet others being introduced with new patches) and the blatant lack of content (2 modes, 6 maps) MWO would have deservedly circled down the drain a while ago already.

Edited by Elandyll, 08 April 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Aym]

sj mausgmr, on 08 April 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

How about we stop arguing dictionary definitions and focus on what people actually want out of the competitive scene instead? Or maybe figure out if people even want one in the first place? Or maybe instead we can weigh down another useful and insightful thread with more blubbering than you'd find in a postnatal sperm whale.

Great, let's find a useful and insightful post because I responded to the OP pages ago with insight into the reasons that competitive gaming scenes do not match his ideal fixes for MWO in any way shape or form. Then others got into discussing definitions and I simply provided the definitions they were seeking to show them the error of their arguments.

[DocBach]

Aym, on 08 April 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Well your one piece of anecdotal evidence is certainly convincing... except I have no idea what "event" you went to, if it was local or amateur hour or what. Sc2, WoW Arena, Halo, and top tier esports player certainly don't fit your stereotypes, not if they're advancing.

right. I'm sure the kids who won the Call of Duty elite tournament all take time to do crossfit and kettlebell drills in between matches.

But the ones I saw all looked like they were 110 lbs and their entire diet consisted of high sugar foods and energy drinks.

They are the opposite of real athletes - their "exercises" are being sedimentary for hours upon hours.

Edited by DocBach, 08 April 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Slaytronic, on 07 April 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

competitive this game never 1. It's not popular enough 2. It's a game where one person can kill the whole enemy team
3. It's not skill based 4. many more reasons

How in hell can #2 be true if #3 is also true? One can only marvel at the.... (insert a bad word here)

The guy who killed the whole other Team had no skill?

Another fine example of how totally bogus these Forums really are when it comes to helping move the game forward. (Holy Smokes Batman)

[KingCobra]

LT Kinslayer, on 08 April 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

-FFA is not one of the available game modes.
-There are ways to deal with ECM, Raven's, and poptarts.
-That pic you posted is very fitting. Your statement is filled with fear and superstition and has no true content.

The fact is IF I could rewind back 13-15 years ago you would all see the true way MechWarrior games were fun and competitive for solo or teams. First you had a huge chat lobby launcher system that ran 24 hours a day. Then you had 3rd party leagues around 30 of them with ladder and planetary type websites that stayed open 24 hours a day. Any player from any where in the world that had Mechwarrior3-Mechwarrior4MErcinaries and expansions could play 24 hours a day. The leagues promoted a highly competitive format and also the chat/launcher lobby promoted player growth and socialization for more types of game play RP leagues come to mind as well as a few RP planetary leagues. PGI has gone in the exact opposite to this with huge FFA drops with random players which will fail it was tried many times since MechWarrior 2 and each time the league died very quickly around 6 months time max. So you can deny MWO is not a huge FFA environment all you want but if they don't change it back to the older proven competitive format MWO will die and we might not get another real MechWarrior game for ever.

Edited by KingCobra, 08 April 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[sj mausgmr]

KingCobra, on 08 April 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

The fact is IF I could rewind back 13-15 years ago you would all see the true way MechWarrior games were fun and competitive for solo or teams. First you had a huge chat lobby launcher system that ran 24 hours a day. Then you had 3rd party leagues around 30 of them with ladder and planetary type websites that stayed open 24 hours a day. Any player from any where in the world that had Mechwarrior3-Mechwarrior4MErcinaries and expansions could play 24 hours a day. The leagues promoted a highly competitive format and also the chat/launcher lobby promoted player growth and socialization for more types of game play RP leagues come to mind as well as a few RP planetary leagues. PGI has gone in the exact opposite to this with huge FFA drops with random players which will fail it was tried many times since MechWarrior 2 and each time the league died very quickly around 6 months time max. So you can deny MWO is not a huge FFA environment all you want but if they don't change it back to the older proven competitive format MWO will die and we might not get another real MechWarrior game for ever.

I literally take the time to write posts to save people from looking like idiots, and attempting to educate them a little bit about what is actually going on in the community.

Here's a tip folks.

Nobody cares what you have to say unless you have an actual measured response to what has already gone on in a thread. As much as you may want them to be, forums are not some kind of personal hate vent for you to blurt out whatever you feel like whenever you want and everyone be totally cool with it.

You wouldn't walk into a conversation half way through, just to repeat the same stuff everyone was talking about 10 minutes ago.

Well, maybe you would, if you were totally socially inept.

So let's all stop wanking ourselves to sleep about how great the past was, and maybe try and find out what's going on in the present, hmm?

[Victor Morson]

Lonestar1771, on 08 April 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

The issue here is that PGI is just blowing smoke up our *****. Same thing they did with 3PV and Coolant.

To be fair, they could have made Coolant a MW4 style system, or even LL, where it became a crutch for every high energy build. With the one-shot not-100% system, this coolant is useful without being overpowered.

The fact taking it replaces other gear also balances it.

People need to stop landing on PGI over the Coolant. I think that system is 100% fine as is. It's reasonably priced for cbills and does it's job effectively.

... we'll see if they can manage to make the airstrike/artillery not hilarious.

[KingCobra]

sj mausgmr, on 08 April 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

I literally take the time to write posts to save people from looking like idiots, and attempting to educate them a little bit about what is actually going on in the community.

Here's a tip folks.

Nobody cares what you have to say unless you have an actual measured response to what has already gone on in a thread. As much as you may want them to be, forums are not some kind of personal hate vent for you to blurt out whatever you feel like whenever you want and everyone be totally cool with it.

You wouldn't walk into a conversation half way through, just to repeat the same stuff everyone was talking about 10 minutes ago.

Well, maybe you would, if you were totally socially inept.

So let's all stop wanking ourselves to sleep about how great the past was, and maybe try and find out what's going on in the present, hmm?

You sir are as ignorant as PGI and like most you refuse to see what others are trying to say and what worked for this IP It worked so well in fact players supported past MechWarrior IP's for over 20 years . PGI should wise up and quit playing the fool. Use the past MechWarrior games and lobby's and leagues to improve the game and financially be rewarded not dither in a failed game model which im sure many see it as.

[Mister Blastman]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 April 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Golf and NASCAR is competitive, (car) racing in general is not a Sport.

You've never raced a car, have you?

I can assure you even something benign like Solo II Autocross in the SCCA can leave you sore and bruised after a day of racing. The guys driving F1 pull 6 lateral Gs.

The resting G max of most humans is around 5 - 6 Gs--at this level the average person has to start special flexing and physical maneuvers to push blood into their brain or they'll lose consciousness. Search g-lock on youtube for some videos.

It is laughable to think racing cars is not a sport. Try it sometime. You might like it.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I'm personally wondering what games the OP has ever played in a competition enviroment because his statements make it appear he's never played any.

Weapons being useless..yeah, that's been the case since MW2, it was the case in Doom and other games prior to MW2, and in games like Quake, Q2, Q3, etc, etc, etc that came later. Oddly enough, it hasn't ever stopped serious competition in those games, with people making a lot of money playing them against others in a professional setting. Always funny to see a top tier player pull out a 'useless' weapon and go on a rampage with it..skill..a little factor the OP tends to totally ignore, it's a HUGE thing in actual top tier competition because everything else tends to be equal.

I ran a top 3 team in the OGL Tribes ladder years ago, and we ran the exact same setup as every OTHER top 10 team in the ladder because it was the optimal setup. 1 Heavy, 2 Mediums and 5 Lights..for grins and giggles we'd make it 2 Heavy, 2 Mediums and 4 Lights once in a while, but truth was, optimal is optimal so we'd always run the 1/2/5 setup for real competition. Both teams had the exact same setup and the exact same gear, it was all about the skill of the two teams and individual skill of the members of those teams that was the deciding factor in a win or loss.

Now, a little more up to date game, LoL. Some of the heros you can pick are..meh, others are just plain OP, so what do you see in the top tier play? Right, the same on both sides, and it's the ability to work as a team and individual skills that are the deciding factor. Just like in SC2 or BF2 or BF3 or CoD or whatever.

Top tier players all tend to run the same things because those are the OPTIMAL choices. Tactics, teamwork and individual skills are what decides the outcomes.

Now, does MWO have what it takes to be a serious e-sport?

I WANT to say HELL YES! because I love the genre, but the fact is..the top money making e-sports are a bit of a funny thing. SC2 is huge in certain parts of the world, but that's actually a very limited geographical area. Outside of there, most people have no clue that SC2 is played for anything but fun, they sure as hells don't know about the superstar status the top SC2 players enjoy, the money they make, the life style they live. LoL is a little more global, but outside of online gamers, most people have no clue what LoL is other then a text shorthand for laughing out loud. Quake..hey, most people have at least heard of Quake, but when was the last time you saw anyone in the news about it..yeah..not since the kid won the sports car back in the 90s. People still play it for money though.

Now, what do those games share in common? Nothing...almost...they do share 1 little thing...they can go from being boring as hells to watch to being too fast to see what the hells just happened..that's called drama.

MWO has the potential for great drama in the matches, comebacks from early mistakes, amazing last man stands that take down half an enemy team at the very end to snatch a win from the jaws of defeat, and overriding victories where you wonder if PGI is testing a really bad AI.

PGI needs to implement tools that allow for good 'casts, external cameras that allow the 'casters to not JUST see from the cockpits of a single team but from ALL of them or outside of them, wide views of the map from above as the action is starting up, views from the cockpit of that Spider who's dancing around 5 enemy Mechs without getting scratched to a view directly OVER that same Spider so the viewers can see the action from outside and actually SEE how the Spider is moving, how the shots are just missing, shots that evoke the drama of the scene in a more visceral way then a cockpit view.

IF PGI wants MWO to be a serious e-sport contender, they need to give the tools to the 'casters so that the show can be presented properly. That's what e-sports are after all, a show, and right now MWO hasn't got a shot in hell of being an e-sport of any standing.

But I'm sure the folks at PGI have been watching the big names in e-sports, seeing how it's done, researching what makes them so watched....but as my wife tells me, I have been wrong before...

[sj mausgmr]

KingCobra, on 08 April 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

You sir are as ignorant as PGI and like most you refuse to see what others are trying to say and what worked for this IP It worked so well in fact players supported past MechWarrior IP's for over 20 years . PGI should wise up and quit playing the fool. Use the past MechWarrior games and lobby's and leagues to improve the game and financially be rewarded not dither in a failed game model which im sure many see it as.

Here, let me save myself explaining i'll just give you a video instead.



Here's a match of 3 that we played against the 9th Lyran Regulars this weekend, in a campaign mission on the planet Polux, as the Mercenary unit the Waco Rangers. We were paid 300million cbills in an online league environment to wage war against the Lyrans and help the FWL take the planet. The consequences of our actions, some nice RP posts on the website for the league, and general fun for all. Pollux is of course, one planet among the many thousand in the inner sphere, all available to the player base for the league in question.

I understand what you want and I'm trying to tell you it already exists you just need to look past your damn nose to see it.

The leagues of old will more than likely, not be coming back. I've been in mechwarrior games before where people have blindly obsessed about the the return of these great leagues. Instead of waiting and hoping, get involved in something actually real.

I will continue to educate the general populace on these matters until they get clued up on what's really going on around here.

[Writhenn]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

lol, right, you build stalkers, zealots, sentries, void rays and phoenixs... but WAIT!!!! thats a balanced army isn't it?! amazing.

As it stands NOW, being competitive in MWO is MIN/MAXing. that clearly isnt the case with SC2, or LoL. You actually go a long way having a unit capable of shooting air and ground units in SC, as being a Tank/support in LoL. In MWO if you don't boat and take advantage of the pin-point convergence, your not being competitive. If your not doing over 40 DMG per alpha ina single location, your not being competitive. Thats the issue. And thats why there is no over-all competitive level with MWO.

No Grandmaster SC2 player diversifies their build that much.

[Lonestar1771]

Victor Morson, on 08 April 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

To be fair, they could have made Coolant a MW4 style system, or even LL, where it became a crutch for every high energy build. With the one-shot not-100% system, this coolant is useful without being overpowered.

The fact taking it replaces other gear also balances it.

People need to stop landing on PGI over the Coolant. I think that system is 100% fine as is. It's reasonably priced for cbills and does it's job effectively.

... we'll see if they can manage to make the airstrike/artillery not hilarious.

Hey just because you enjoy the BOHICA PGI is giving you doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

[Lonestar1771]

Mister Blastman, on 08 April 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

You've never raced a car, have you?

I can assure you even something benign like Solo II Autocross in the SCCA can leave you sore and bruised after a day of racing. The guys driving F1 pull 6 lateral Gs.

The resting G max of most humans is around 5 - 6 Gs--at this level the average person has to start special flexing and physical maneuvers to push blood into their brain or they'll lose consciousness. Search g-lock on youtube for some videos.

It is laughable to think racing cars is not a sport. Try it sometime. You might like it.

You should include [redacted] who claims video gaming is just as demanding as car racing or golf. Both sports you actually have to see the inside of a weight room, have to have some semblance of a healthy diet. Any one who thinks E-sports is anything more than a low level amateur sport, is fairly ignorant to what it takes to be an "athlete".

Edited by Biruke, 08 April 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[Lonestar1771]

Cryll Ankiseth, on 08 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Yeah well, I'm sure all those Korean gamers in their live-TV professional gaming gigs would say otherwise.

Right because Korea is a major focal point in the world of sports, or anything for that matter (other than being neighbors to NK)

[Dan Nashe]

Where to start.

1. Lack of diversity in its core playing mechanics.
You must boat: UAC5s, AC20s, ERPPCs, Gauss Rifles, MLs, SRMs, Large Lasers, Medium Lasers, or Streak SRMs, or some combination of the above in a complimentary way to win. [i.e., mechs with no clear strategy other than "a little bit of everything." will lose].

You must either be a brawler (DDC, K2, CNT, HBK), striker (see: fast heavy alpha Splatcat or Jaegerbomb), or a sniper, a fire support mech (ATL-KS, STK-3F), or a scout (3L, 3M).

You must play a RVN 3L; JR7-D or F; CDA-3M, HBK-4SP, 4P or H; CNT-A, AL or D; CPLT-A1 or K2; JM6-S, CTF-3D; STK-3F, ATL-D-DC, or KS to win.

Ok, it doesn't have that much more variety than counterstrike, quake, soccer, baseball, tennis, et cetera.

I sort of see your point. (?)

Would the game be better with MORE variety? Of course.
Is the game a failure if no one ever uses MGs or LBXs? No.

2. Weapon convergence & kills are too fast.
There can never be a competitive game where you can kill people quickly.

First person shooters are not an option if you can kill someone in under 10 seconds, I take it?
They just aren't competitive.

You are right there is a lack of randomness in this game. Everything reacts to the player. Clearly, this does not allow for skill. Everything is controlled by the random position and facing of every mech.

[Note, I will not like it if this game turns into 4 man fire lances one shotting enemies with clan tech. I think that's bad game play. But "not competitive."?]

(/sarcasm)

3. The counter to a well made and well played team is another well made and well played team.

I think what he means is that there is no rock, paper, scissors. Two basketball teams is boring. One team should have extra defense and the other should have extra offense, to make it interesting? Maybe they each have to have two short guys, and choose where to put them?

Again, I'm not saying it is not *interesting* to have to look at enemy team comp and adjust accordingly, but that is not a *necessary* element to be competitive.

As to the specific example:
I can kill an SRM-boat with a Centurian. I will run faster than him, and if he tries to chase me my buddy in the atlas will blow his butt off. But obviously srm boats and point blank brawling is dominating sniperwarrior online. No build diversity again.

4. Increased Armor
Too much armor means that focused builds win.

So, the long ranged snipers need to be made more powerful?

How does this matter for competitiveness?

Sure, well rounded builds are bad. That is not the way I'd necessarily love the game to play. But it's hardly relevant to the issue of competitiveness. Nor, when there are multiple different ways to *focus* your build, does it necessarily affect diversity.

Put another way, if every build was well rounded, it would just be:
"It's an assault mech." "What are its weapons?" "Like everything else, it's well rounded, who cares?"
Where is the strategy in fighting well-rounded mechs with well-rounded mechs? How will that encourage diversity.
It just makes every atlas look like every other atlas if they're well rounded. [Note, I'm pretty sure the RS Sniper/fire support and DDC brawler play differently]

5. - Equipment -
Boils down to "there should be a trade off for everything."
In a perfect world? Sure.
In a real competitive environment, that's almost never the case. There are always SOME bad choices. Some obviously choices.

I guarantee you in starcraft there are a few things you just "don't do." Builds that don't work. Strategies that just aren't viable in top end play.

More variety is better.
Sure.

Right now MWO is a mixture of interesting choices (UAC5x2 or AC20?) (ML or heat sink on your sniper?) (faster or more heat sinks?) (ML or more ammo?) and easy choices (double heat sinks? Check. Endo steel? Check.).

There are good choices, and bad choices.
All that matters is that there are multiple good choices.
It does not matter if there are 20 bad choices if there are 30 good choices.
In terms of "competitive."

In a pure competitive game, all gear would be free.
Standard armor would be removed from the game.

In a game where you grind money to buy better gear though, the meta-game of grinding money to improve your 3rd cataphract is entirely irrelevant to the fact that all my "finished" mechs use endo steel. That doesn't mean the game isn't open to being "competitive" just because standard armor exists.

The point is this game is not being built up as a pure sport. It has a variety of things.
What's important though, is that the time investment to get one mech to tip-top competitive shape is reasonable, and relatively small, so the "getting cooler mechs" part does not interfere with the "balanced competition" part.

Are you an ***** for getting FF but not Endo Steel?
Of course.
Is Endo Steel a no-brainer? Of course.
Might the game be more interesting if there was a reason to choose one or the other? Sure.
Does this have any relevance to competitiveness? No.
Do you sometimes have to make real choices about getting FF or not? Yes.
Would the game be more competitive without standard internal structure? No.
Would build diversity increase if Endo Steel made your internal structure 10% weaker? Yes.
Is this necessary to make the game fun and interesting? No. It just makes ONE choice (endo steel) easy.
There are other hard choices.

Edited by DanNashe, 08 April 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[Captain Pee Sheets]

What crack are you smoking OP? My centurions eat mechs of all sizes for breakfast. Maybe you just need more practice. ;-)

[Dudeman3k]

Loxx, on 08 April 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Clearly you've never served in a modern military force. Tanks haven't slowed to fire since the 1960's. You "zero" your weapons so your sights match your barrel defection, IE Calibration. Laying prone to fire is so you present the smallest possible target to the enemy while maintaining minimal sight pattern movement. All of which have nothing to do with convergence. Convergence is bringing TWO separate firing systems together to hit in the same spot.

All and all, your argument is (if I understand it correctly) is the same thing as saying "I want to bring crossbows and Batistas to a modern tank battle and be successful". Fighting forces bring the weapon systems that are going to give them the greatest advantage on the battlefield, which is constantly evolving. IE. The stone was replaced by <the club, <the hammer, <the sword, <the bow, <the crossbow, <the rifle.

The weapons you're requesting are not efficient enough for success in this evolution of the game. Is it possible that will change? Absolutely, but doubtful.

I have an AKO to prove I am in your "modern military force" lol. care to say that one more time please??

[Slater01]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

BAP, AMS, and the Command Console provide little to no benefit. A rock side can do a lot more than what these can provide. really.

That part is my fav.
Hey maybe there will be Rock Slide module!

[Slater01]

Cryll Ankiseth, on 08 April 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

Look at the AWP in Counter-Strike. What did you think the leagues did with that? They either banned it or allowed its use. What can leagues in MWO do? Ban or restrict certain builds. Its not that hard, only problem being PGI being able to code in the necessary stuff to allow us to do these things.

I would really love to see Restricted level of play in MWO

Imagine 1 ECM mech per Lance
And no 2 of the same Varient per Lance

I would support this. Having said that I'm not (nor my group) is the hardcore win at all cost type of player(s).

Edited by Slater01, 08 April 2013 - 03:15 PM.