211 replies to this topic

[Fedifensor]

Returning for the Founder's weekend, I decided to dust off my CPLT-C1(F) and find out if my LRM mech was still viable. It's a long-range support build with 2 ALRM-15's, 1 ER PPC, and a TAG system...which gives me all the items recommended by the devs to counter the effects of ECM. I don't claim to be the best player in the world, but in the past this mech has been at least 50/50 on both win/loss and kill/death ratios. I'm certainly a better Catapult pilot than a Cicada pilot, which is the mech I started playing after ECM entered the game.

Thus far, I've been playing Conquest almost exclusively, since I like the capture mechanic over a pure slugfest. Here are my results so far (I've included a few other models because I didn't want to deal with the cut and paste issues):



[For reference, the CPLT-C4 has 4 ASRM-6 and a LL, the Cicada-3M has ECM, an ER PPC and 2 ML, and the Cicada-2A has 6 ML.]

As you can see, the C1 is in the hole for both win/loss and kill/death. The 3M has much better results on both, though it's in the hole on kill/death due to the light armament and my playstyle (I tend to either focus on captures, or stay with the heavy/assault mechs and cloak them with ECM). So, the stats definitely point to problems with LRM performance in the current environment.

Some matches, I get lucky and have multiple targets on the field not cloaked by ECM. However, even then my missiles seem to be less effective than the direct-fire weaponry used by other heavy mechs (Dragons, Jagermechs, and Cataphracts). If the luck of the draw is against me, it's much, much worse. I've had matches where even the ECM scramble of the PPC and my TAG laser can't keep a lock long enough to get a missile hit, and if mechs get in close range I'm toast.

At this point, I'm about to mothball my Catapults, just as I did with my Jenners a few months ago. The Cicada is interesting, but I miss having a mech that puts out a decent amount of damage at long range. I suppose I could eventually save up for an AS7-D-DC, though it's a bit too slow for my tastes.

Anyone have suggestions on how to make LRMs more viable? Or are they just an obsolete weapon at this point?

(Edited to fix display of stats)

Edited by Fedifensor, 07 April 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Tennex]

wish LRMs still did *some* damage at close range. similar to PPCs

[Ozric]

I've made a point of spending most of this weekend in my trusty C1-F, which I had benched for a while due to current LRM woes. I figured it would be a good hard core practice session, and I have often advised using you favored weapons through times of nerf to increase your long term skills. But LRMs really suck right now. They really suck. Even when I get a good bombing run on somebody they hardly feel it, low total damage even when i empty my bins, and its actually my PPC that's been doing all the work anyway.

So i wouldn't bother with LRMs until the fix, which is coming, unless you fancy the hard core training mode.

[Eddrick]

LRMs are ok right now. Many feel that they are just about were they should be (Self included).

I used them while grinding to master all Catapults. Also had a TAG with the C4 and 2 ERPPs with the C1. Did aboout equaly well with both. Got an average of over 100 damage per match. They are situational like they always have been. When the situation was good for them I did over 200 damage (800 highest). TAG works wonders against ECM at a distance. But, I get screwed by anyone that gets within minimum range. Catapults just are not fast enough to open a gap against smaller (Some equal sized) Mechs.

[Victor Morson]

Ozric, on 07 April 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

I've made a point of spending most of this weekend in my trusty C1-F, which I had benched for a while due to current LRM woes. I figured it would be a good hard core practice session, and I have often advised using you favored weapons through times of nerf to increase your long term skills. But LRMs really suck right now. They really suck. Even when I get a good bombing run on somebody they hardly feel it, low total damage even when i empty my bins, and its actually my PPC that's been doing all the work anyway.

So i wouldn't bother with LRMs until the fix, which is coming, unless you fancy the hard core training mode.

I've stopped even taking cover from LRM boats. It's easier to just walk up to them and punch them in the face, through the open. It's totally sad.

Eddrick, on 07 April 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

LRMs are ok right now. Many feel that they are just about were they should be (Self included).

Many feel they are alright. Many are wrong.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 April 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[wolf74]

Being a LRM mech right now is very hard.
Con's:
ECM blocks any locks that does not have tag. Or totally removed lock if you under enemy ecm.
AMS shoots down some of your missile
For max range shoot must hold a Lock for 13+ seconds.
Pray the target does not walk the 20m to get behind that rock.
it is the 5th&8th heaviest weight system in the game.

[Victor Morson]

wolf74, on 07 April 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Being a LRM mech right now is very hard.
Con's:
ECM blocks any locks that does not have tag. Or totally removed lock if you under enemy ecm.
AMS shoots down some of your missile
For max range shoot must hold a Lock for 13+ seconds.
Pray the target does not walk the 20m to get behind that rock.
it is the 5th&8th heaviest weight system in the game.

Don't forget you need to equip BAP to get quick locks (which is vital to pierce ECM with LRMs; yes, BAP does not DIRECTLY impact ECM, but if you break ECM with a TAG, BAP lets you take advantage of that brief window very quickly), as well as to really mount your own TAG to reliably cut through ECM at range.

Plus, for maximum damage, you need to stay between 180m and 750m, so that you can keep your missiles guided on the way in / Artemis IV working (which requires LOS). Indirect shots are a joke even before the nerf.

That's a lot of complexity and tonnage and sub-system investment for something that tickles you. In particular since you could just take, say, an ER PPC or Gauss and put out reliable, longer range damage with no "hard counters" to it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 April 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

You can try to justify this any way you want, but reality is that for the tonnage & ammo 2 LRM 15 or 20 should be as feared as a 2-3 ppc boat or a ppc/gauss combo. instead your scratching paint right now.

all of this goes back to the ECM implementation & the poor LRM/SSRM flightpaths & design. untill the interaction of these 3 things is fixed, PGI will have a horrible time resolving this issue.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

They're horrible right now, although they've been horrible since ECM patch. But now, in addition to PoS OP ECM, you also have gutter damage even when you can shoot. They've all but buried the role of LRM Carrier. They may as well have just taken the weapon out of the game. They're a complete waste now until they get some real changes. And to clarify, by changes, I don't mean more damage nerfs. I played my once glorious C1F earlier, blew 6 tons of LRM ammo, didn't even break 500 damage. I can do that much in any other Heavy or Assault without even having to think about it. And that was a rare game; enemy had no ECM, and I was allowed to freely pour out 6 boxes of missiles. It's pathetic, so back to the shelf my C1F goes; this time probably for good until they decide to buff missile damage or do something about ECM. The missiles don't even scratch paint jobs now and that's assuming you can even lockon to fire them, which you often can't because this game is still infested with ECM pilots due to the fact that they need it to win Light vs Light fights.

Edited by Bluten, 07 April 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Fedifensor]

Victor Morson, on 07 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Don't forget you need to equip BAP to get quick locks (which is vital to pierce ECM with LRMs; yes, BAP does not DIRECTLY impact ECM, but if you break ECM with a TAG, BAP lets you take advantage of that brief window very quickly), as well as to really mount your own TAG to reliably cut through ECM at range.

Actually, I should have mentioned that...my Founder's Catapult also has BAP.

[wonator]

ATM, if you bring LRMs into game, you are just wasting your mech tonnage. Who say its good as they are now is:
1. ***** ******
2. New player
3. Moron

If your target has atleast half brain, its almost impossible to hit him and now even when you hit him, you do almost no real damage.

Edited by wonator, 07 April 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[ConanTheGamer]

I have been doing good with mine. I put in an xl 245 engine, 2 lrm 20's(with artemis), and 2 medium lasers.
Mech' Matches Played Wins Losses Ratio Kills Deaths Ratio Damage Done XP Earned Time Played
CATAPULT CPLT-C1 24 14 10 1.40 6 12 0.50 2,592 12,781 02:10:51

[MischiefSC]

LRMs are not a good boating weapon. They are an excellent weapon when combined with some close range firepower. I do it on my Atlas; trade in my 3xSRM6As for 2xLRM10As. They push snipers under cover, screw up peoples aim and let you do damage at great range to anyone stupid enough to stay out in the open. This is how I chew up delicious, delicious snipers in my Atlas. 2xLRM10s+Artemis, AC20, 2xLL. LURM them while you close. If they pop up to shoot they'll be taking damage which, thanks to cockpit shake means their aim is way off.

Advanced sensors, BAP, advanced target decay. LRMs work extremely well. They fill the role they are designed for.

Are they comparable to dual AC20s just at 180-1,000 meters and auto-locking but with a minimum range of 180 and their damage spread over the target? No. Nor should they be. That always was a problem and poor design that turned out to be a bug. Good thing they fixed it.

LRMs are as useful as any other weapon now. As it should be.

[Vrekgar]

Eddrick, on 07 April 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

LRMs are ok right now. Many feel that they are just about were they should be (Self included).

I used them while grinding to master all Catapults. Also had a TAG with the C4 and 2 ERPPs with the C1. Did aboout equaly well with both. Got an average of over 100 damage per match. They are situational like they always have been. When the situation was good for them I did over 200 damage (800 highest). TAG works wonders against ECM at a distance. But, I get screwed by anyone that gets within minimum range. Catapults just are not fast enough to open a gap against smaller (Some equal sized) Mechs.

1600 Artemis+TAG missiles does barely 500 dmg. Thats .32 damage PER MISSILE. At that level your getting better effect from MACHINE GUNS. This was against targets in the open, without AMS, Without ECM, who did not manuver.

Your an ***** if you think they are in a good place. Ton for ton they are the worst weapon in the game.

[Buckminster]

I dusted off my Founder's C1 for the weekend, and was generally underwhelmed by the LRMs.

I have two LRM15s, with Artemis, BAP and lvl 1 advanced sensors. Getting lock wasn't that bad (unless I hit a big ECM group), but the damage from the missiles did seem fairly pitiful. At one point I jumped a pair of mechs, dumped 4 salvos into the back of an Awesome, and barely scratched him. I'm sorry, but over 100 missiles into the back of a mech should have at least broken through the armor in a couple locations, especially since Artemis tightens the grouping so much.

It wasn't completely ineffective, but it definitely wasn't worth the tonnage I needed to dedicate to the weapons.

Edited by Buckminster, 07 April 2013 - 03:50 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Assuming you can even get a lock on them in the first place. The problems that the role has is far too numerous and doesn't pay off. You either can't lock, or you can then the missiles hit terrain, or you hit them and do moot damage. There's no pay off; you just handicap your team. Dual PPCs=14 tons, same as 2 LRM 15s, and when they smack your face, it actually hurts. AC 20 is also 14 tons, and again, when it hits you, it actually hurts. They also don't have a device preventing them from firing.

[Rebas Kradd]

I might buff them back up just a little bit if I were PGI, but at least they're not overpowered. I see a lot of people toss them to the side because they don't bring them easy kills, but I have decent success with them as an OPTION weapon. I especially enjoy being the guy to finish off a fleeing 'Mech that has escaped everyone else's brawling range.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

MischiefSC, on 07 April 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

LRMs are as useful as any other weapon now. As it should be.

LRMs are suppose to be a good boating weapon. Did you not see Catapult default loadouts? There is such a thing as an LRM Carrier IRL and Battletech. Your last line especially baffles me because I've no idea how someone can actually believe that. In reality, they are in a near useless condition. A desperately needed damage buff would help, but until ECM/BAP is fixed, they will never be in a good place. And judging from latest fail CC update; ECM will stay OP for a long time.

[wonator]

Also its temporary hotfix. In PGI terms, it means that it will be temporary atleast next half year

Edited by wonator, 07 April 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[Traigus]

Using my founders this weekend. 2 LRM 15s tag and 2 LL

Been top 4 on my team every game I played it (not so true with my founder's hunchie) except 1 game on tourmaline where I cornered into an atlas and 3 phracts.. and got mugged.

I got 6 people on alpine, and a guy said I was cheating yesterday.. I was just higher and ducking didn't help them.. Most of the hills are pretty shallow except the big mountain... I also had 2 guys Tagging for me.


I find it useful to not launch right out. People will assume light/no real LRM threat (and that i'm a Splat cat) and run all over the place, breaking formations and otherwise bouncing nimbly-bimbly from tree to tree. Works good vs. jj mechs like spiders when they get hopping later on.

3 mins in.. Blam! LRMS everywhere.