42 replies to this topic

[Inertiamon]

OK, I know this was off the table whilst this game was a Simulation. Realistically though that's not going to pay the rent, that seems obvious from the removal of RR (agreed), the probable 3PV option and the consumable implementation. With that past-tense shift in mind can we have a rational discussion/command chair on your thoughts on respawning either as a dropship style choice of mechs, same mech or something else?

For me it seems to be one big downside verses a plethora of decent benefits;

Downsides

Some element of peril that lend credibility to a simulation are undoubtedly lost. I'm not oblivious to the gravity of this and in an ideal world would prefer the single mech model to stay. However...

Benefits

Expand Game types Conquest is currently little more than glorified Assault and could be improved immeasurably (especially on the larger maps) with a longer, tactical game in which more than one approach/defence/offence can be used to turn the tide of ticking points. There are enough examples out there of games that have made a success of conquest under those conditions that I hardly need to justify this point.

Improve ratio of playtime against downtime. Currently the average game length feels like around 10 mins. You tell me. Either way it seems that many players enjoy far shorter periods of action than they could be given the addition of respawns. I honestly can't think of a good reason to have someone connected to your server resources for ten minutes at at time and not actually able to enjoy the game nor further. Obviously they can't amend their current mech of choice in the mechlab either to fix disco farmers so it's spectate and be damned. There should be a period of dead time for sure but the entire round? In all but pure LMS gametypes it's a barrier to enjoyment, especially with 8v8 player games as rare as they are (in favour of 8v7, 8v6 etc)

The right tool for the right job. I've got four mechs in my dropship to cover various roles. Please let me choose a sensible one for the given map. This is a self-balancing mechanic which retains the need to build sensibly whilst still feeling the enjoyment of launching the low heat mech first when Caustic comes around.

Get over the sim thing. I'm as big a proponent as anyone but it hasn't worked as we'd all like it. We're not back to the drawing board, but I think some key design decisions are owed a rethink.

ggthx.

[Mechteric]

I'm all for the dropship mode as a means of a limited respawn, but for some reason the thought of dropping back in with the same mech all magically repaired 10 seconds later in the same match kinda kills a certain feel of the game. Call it sim, whatever it just feels better knowing that when you kill a mech it won't just come back and finish you off 30 seconds later.

[Hotthedd]

You forgot one downside: Respawning will drive away thousands of people who currently support the game in the hopes of attracting new players that may or may not ever spend a dime on MW:O.

[Critical Fumble]

Hotthedd, on 08 April 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

You forgot one downside: Respawning will drive away thousands of people who currently support the game in the hopes of attracting new players that may or may not ever spend a dime on MW:O.

Would it? Drive a lot of people off, that is. Even if there was a severe re-spawn allergy, wouldn't only be an issue if you HAD to play a re-spawn mode?

While I agree that its foolish to ignore your current clientele in favor of those you may never have, but this is an idea that could play to both sides.

Like the dropship idea - it creates longer, more intense matches for the veterans while giving more breaking in time for the newer players.

[Krigherren]

The whole franchise developed around the idea of it being a Mech simulator, not a Mech deathmatch. Respawning would just give players more incentive to rush carelessly directly into the face of the enemy, knowing they'll just respawn. Pilots don't die and just respawn as a clone in a dropship with a new mech and all, and having a dropship carrying enough Mechs to supply 8-12 pilots as well as extras to replace those destroyed in battle is not at all realistic, canon-wise nor physics wise. There aren't thousands of Mechs to go around like there are assault rifles for infantry, and they certainly aren't something that would be considered disposable enough to just keep sending waves of 'em. Nor would a dropship really be capable of transporting them. MechWarrior fans enjoy realism, we play because it is an awesome simulator and a glorious getaway from the norm of modern gaming. I'd say if you want Mech deathmatch, play Hawken.

[Causticus]

Agreed, if you want re-spawn, play Hawken, which is a great FPS adaptation of mech-like combat in it's own right. As others have said, you should value your mech and your life, it makes the game play much more intense and worthwhile. If you die early, you still have the option to quit and go pilot a different mech, or you can spectate and learn from other players that are better than you. Besides, matches tend to be relatively short, so you'll be back in the action soon, anyway. Respawn would destroy a HUGE part of MechWarrior's identity.

Edited by Causticus, 08 April 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[Hotthedd]

Critical Fumble, on 08 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Would it? Drive a lot of people off, that is. Even if there was a severe re-spawn allergy, wouldn't only be an issue if you HAD to play a re-spawn mode?

While I agree that its foolish to ignore your current clientele in favor of those you may never have, but this is an idea that could play to both sides.

Like the dropship idea - it creates longer, more intense matches for the veterans while giving more breaking in time for the newer players.

Yes. Yes it would drive off many Mechwarriors. Even if one did not have to play it, the fact that other people would get rewarded for easy mode would make the grind not worth the effort. There are other games to play.

[Critical Fumble]

Hotthedd, on 10 April 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

Yes. Yes it would drive off many Mechwarriors. Even if one did not have to play it, the fact that other people would get rewarded for easy mode would make the grind not worth the effort. There are other games to play.

You're making it sound like a moral issue, you don't have to offer human sacrifices to respawn, you know.

As long as the time invested:rewards ratio stays the same between the two, your point holds no water. It being easier holds no water either, as both sides would be able to respawn.

I'd grant that pure unrestricted respawns would be stupid, but a limited respawn or the ability to use another mech from your bay could be interesting.

[Syllogy]

Hotthedd, on 08 April 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

You forgot one downside: Respawning will drive away thousands of people who currently support the game in the hopes of attracting new players that may or may not ever spend a dime on MW:O.

Why would it drive players away?

[Durant Carlyle]

Inertiamon, on 08 April 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Get over the sim thing. I'm as big a proponent as anyone but it hasn't worked as we'd all like it. We're not back to the drawing board, but I think some key design decisions are owed a rethink.

Get over the sim thing? lol

This isn't the standard FPS. Limited four-'Mech Dropship mode is the only "respawn" we should ever have to deal with.

The tactics used by people in no-respawn games are totally different than those who play games where respawn is the norm. We do not want respawn tactics to invade our game. Newbies should have to learn that there are limited resources and that they should be careful with their 'Mech. Besides, our way will make them a better player in other games.

If you don't want to be connected to a match for 10 minutes while you're dead, earn yourself another 'Mech and then exit the match and use the second 'Mech to play a second match. By the time that's done, your first 'Mech should be ready again.

[Rotanis]

Hey Durant, so I'm gonna get a second mech shortly. Does leaving the match early effect your C-bill or xp gain at all?

[Garth Erlam]

No, you get your C-Bills and XP when the match finishes

[PropagandaWar]

From what I gathered off the original concept. You don't drop in with the same mech unless you have 3-4 of the same mech. So theoretically you can drop in as a scout. Play till your dead then realize you really need to bring in a brawler at that time to help even the big battle up a bit and go on from there. Hell if you survive the whole battle in one mech maybe even give you an extra c-bill award.

[Inertiamon]

Some people seem to have serious issues dealing with long words like "proponent" and "fun".

[Inertiamon]

Durant Carlyle, on 10 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

The tactics used by people in no-respawn games are totally different than those who play games where respawn is the norm. We do not want respawn tactics to invade our game. Newbies should have to learn that there are limited resources and that they should be careful with their 'Mech.

Until their next match four minutes later where their destroyed mech is absolutely shiny and new and refilled with weapons and on a different planet and they're not still dead on the last planet right? We're already well past anything remotely sim related. The sooner everyone groks that the better imo. Let's have a conversation about what we are playing, not what we expected.

Plenty of games keep the connected/playing ratio higher than MWO whilst punishing failure. I think there's substantial grey area between what you say is "respawn tactics" and what we have now. Namely that (as I mentioned) there should be downtime. The downtime is punishment for being dead. CS always managed that by putting you out for a round. MOBA's have an increasing downtime punishment in accordance with level. This game could penalise you against your match totals as mentioned above. There's both XP and CB to eat into there.

The fact remains that making it one drop permadeath is crippling gametype innovation. That cannot be a good thing.

Durant Carlyle, on 10 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Besides, our way will make them a better player in other games.

Wow.

Durant Carlyle, on 10 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

If you don't want to be connected to a match for 10 minutes while you're dead, earn yourself another 'Mech and then exit the match and use the second 'Mech to play a second match. By the time that's done, your first 'Mech should be ready again.

Doesn't this entirely encourage the "respawn style" that you rail against? I don't see how this isn't sim-breaking but ejecting and dropping another mech is.

Edited by Inertiamon, 11 April 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[bookwood]

it's a beta still (lol), so where is the problem to give it a chance? it would be the third (second) game mode you don't have to play?!

it would be OPTIONAL, so i would like to see rather a game mode that doesn't succeed in the end than nothing.

beta = testing

Edited by bookwood, 11 April 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[Kamelkaze]

I have a lot of funny memories of 30 minutes frostbite king of the hill with respawn. If possible implement this into MWO!

[Inertiamon]

Similarly some of the best gaming I've ever had was conquest on Bf42/DC. Epic epic fights. Multiple strategies within single matches. It's impossible to get any cohesion in a pug team within a few mins. You need time to get established.

[Lightdragon]

Krigherren, on 08 April 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

The whole franchise developed around the idea of it being a Mech simulator, not a Mech deathmatch. Respawning would just give players more incentive to rush carelessly directly into the face of the enemy, knowing they'll just respawn. Pilots don't die and just respawn as a clone in a dropship with a new mech and all, and having a dropship carrying enough Mechs to supply 8-12 pilots as well as extras to replace those destroyed in battle is not at all realistic, canon-wise nor physics wise. There aren't thousands of Mechs to go around like there are assault rifles for infantry, and they certainly aren't something that would be considered disposable enough to just keep sending waves of 'em. Nor would a dropship really be capable of transporting them. MechWarrior fans enjoy realism, we play because it is an awesome simulator and a glorious getaway from the norm of modern gaming. I'd say if you want Mech deathmatch, play Hawken.

eh... part of that statement is pretty wrong... there are dropships that can carry entire mech batallions and their gear like the overlord, hell even the union class has room for 12 mechs the overlord carries a compliment of infantry, 36 battlemechs and their gear, and has a seperate bay for 6 aeros

[Harmin]

I think the game is heading too much towards Arcade shoot'em up as it is. No to respawn mode thank you very much.

-Armin