112 replies to this topic

[Steel Claws]

The AC 10 is like a red headed step child. It weighs just 2 tons less than a AC 20 but does half the damage. It's rate of fire is fairly slow as well so it really isn't used much unless it's stuck in as a filler on a mech that can't load a AC 20. I think the weight and recycle time needs to be dropped slightly to make this a more viable weapon. I'm thinking 10 tons with a 2 second recycle. A 2 second recycle puts the DPS at 5.0 - exactly the same as the AC 20. Currently there just isn't a real reason to load it. At the very least it needs to be lighter.

The AC 5 has the worst DPS of any ballistic other than the mechine gun by a factor of nearly 2. It has a DPS of 2.94 when the rest of the ACs are 4 or higher. I believe the weight needs to be dropped to 7 tons, the range extended to 600 meters, and the recycle dropped to 1.3 seconds. The drop in recycle would bring it closer in line for DPS with other ballistics by raising it from 2.94 to 3.85. This is still lower than all of the rest of the ACs but I think it would be very reasonable to at least try.

[AnnoyingCat]

Everything if fine

[Skunk Wolf]

You are not using them right.

Yes I know, I'm a terrible person.

Dual AC10's are a long range AC20 hit. I love the sound and you can really wail on people on a hot map.

A friend of mine runs a quad AC5 'Jager and it's fantastic. Mapped chained and synced. A really long range AC20 hit, or constant demoralizing Dakka.

Check out the damage drop offs, they are very competitive specialized weapons. Well, sort off. The AC10 is incredibly handy.

[NeoFighter]

if anything needs a tweak its ac2s first

[Escef]

AC5s are best for fire support. Twin AC5 and adequate ammo is 19 tons, a guass and ammo is 18. The gauss is cooler running, but is also more of a all or nothing, while missing with an AC5 once or twice is no big beal. Also, twin AC5 have better better DPS than a gauss.

As for the AC10, I think it needs a slightly faster recycle, but that's about it.

[Joseph Mallan]

I have had quite a lot of success with AC10s, AC5 is to small/light damage for my taste so I turn it into larger energy weapons when available.

[Steel Claws]

Skunk Wolf, on 08 April 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

You are not using them right.

Yes I know, I'm a terrible person.

Dual AC10's are a long range AC20 hit. I love the sound and you can really wail on people on a hot map.

A friend of mine runs a quad AC5 'Jager and it's fantastic. Mapped chained and synced. A really long range AC20 hit, or constant demoralizing Dakka.

Check out the damage drop offs, they are very competitive specialized weapons. Well, sort off. The AC10 is incredibly handy.

First off this isn't about useage. It's pure and simple numbers. If they are so great why does almost nobody use them?

Look at what you said - "2 AC 10s is a long ranged AC 20 hit" 24 tons of weapons and 14 slots to do what you can do with 14 tons and 10 slots and this seems reasonable to you?

As for quad AC 5s - I love seeing them because I know I can chew them up and take very little damage.

Edited by Steel Claws, 08 April 2013 - 05:13 AM.

[jeffsw6]

AC5 is poor DPS but it is good dmg/heat. The UAC5 would be dramatically superior if it didn't jam incorrectly (on first shot, etc) yet it does, so .. go figure.

[Steel Claws]

jeffsw6, on 08 April 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

AC5 is poor DPS but it is good dmg/heat. The UAC5 would be dramatically superior if it didn't jam incorrectly (on first shot, etc) yet it does, so .. go figure.

Ummmmm how can it be poor dps and yet good damage? You do 5 points of damage - that's the same as - 1 medium laser. Think about that.

[MustrumRidcully]

Steel Claws, on 08 April 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

First off this isn't about useage. It's pure and simple numbers. If they are so great why does almost nobody use them?

Look at what you said - "2 AC 10s is a long ranged AC 20 hit" 24 tons of weapons and 14 slots to do what you can do with 14 tons and 10 slots and this seems reasonable to you?

As for quad AC 5s - I love seeing them because I know I can chew them up and take very little damage.

2 AC/10 have 8 DPS, 1 AC/20 has only 5. They have have more range.
Mabye that's what you pay 10 extra tons and 4 extra critical slots.

If you really only care about your alpha damage, the AC/ 20 is more economical, but you cannot tell me that it doesn't matter that 2 AC/10 will have dealt 100 damage after 10 seconds at 450, while the AC/20 will have dealt 80 at 270.

If it's not good enough, it doesn't need a big buff.

The real problem of the AC/10 could be that there are no mechs in the weight range that could fit 2 AC/10 but not also 2 Gauss Rifles or 2 AC/20s. You'd probably need a 60 ton mech for that, with 2 ballistic hard points. (Maybe some will try to fit AC/20 or Gauss, but that will be ... tight.)

Or maybe we need a 45 ton mech with a single ballistic slot? Or a 75-85 ton mech with 3 Ballistic slots? (Ideally some that have high-mounted ballistic slots, because otherwise the longer range will probably be harder to use. Cataphracts love to shoot at dirt instead of other mechs.).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 April 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[Barghest Whelp]

Actually, I think all the AC's need some help, apart from the AC20 and the UAC5.

Now, dropping the amount of tons they weigh, or reducing slots is kind of out of the question because it breaks the stock builds, and all the TT fanatics will throw a tantrum of which the likes you have never seen.

Increasing the ROF sounds nice. I also feel that they could buff the amount of ammo you get per ton, but nothing too drastic. I'm not entirely sure about the gauss rifle though. I personally feel it's a steaming pile of dog dung, but maybe others can correct me here. I'm generally more of a close range brawler type than a sniper, so that may have something to do with my bias.

But yes, to summarise: a buff is needed. Fiddling with tonnage/slots is a big no no, however ROF and ammo amounts is cool. Heat could also be tweaked, but I don't really see that being a good enough buff to make them useful.

[Adeptus Odren]

Steel Claws, on 08 April 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

First off this isn't about useage. It's pure and simple numbers. If they are so great why does almost nobody use them?

Look at what you said - "2 AC 10s is a long ranged AC 20 hit" 24 tons of weapons and 14 slots to do what you can do with 14 tons and 10 slots and this seems reasonable to you?

As for quad AC 5s - I love seeing them because I know I can chew them up and take very little damage.

I use them. I prefer using a Catapult K2 with a 280XL engine, 2 AC10s and 4 medium lasers over a K2 with twin AC20s. The twin AC10 K2 can actually run and pound away at targets from a distance; and the medium lasers give you a fighting chance against fast lights. Try it. It's a fun build for AC10s.

Edited by Adeptus Odren, 08 April 2013 - 05:39 AM.

[Versoth]

No top competitive team runs any ballistic other than the Gauss Rifle, AC20 and UAC5. That's what Steel is saying: pubbies might use them, sure, but at the top of this game they have no place.

Gauss rifle runs alongside ERPPCs in snipers. AC20 runs in Atlases. UAC5 used to be used in dakkaphracts, and sometimes paired in an Atlas.

You can stuff AC10 in whatever you want, but it is less optimal than either an AC20, a Gauss Rifle, or no ballistics at all.

[Roland]

Steel Claws is correct. The AC10 and AC5 are currently trash tier weapons.

Folks who are using those weapons are basically just running poor, sub-optimal configurations.

Currently, the only truly viable ballistic weapons are:
Gauss
AC20
UAC5 (and this only if you understand how to not make it jam on the first shot, which lots of folks don't seem to grasp fully)

AC5's are garbage, AC10's are garbage.. The AC2 is kind of garbage, in that it at least serves some useful niche, but is generally outclassed by the gauss if you want long range.

The big reason why the lower caliber AC's are garbage is because DPS is generally meaningless in this game. Large caliber weapons are more useful for killing mechs, because you want to generate high alpha strikes.

Once you get down to the AC5, as Steel correctly points out, you can get the same damage for ONE ton with a medium laser.

[El Bandito]

People use AC10 on many mechs. AC 10 is fine. Not great, but fine.

AC5 is slightly less used but it is definitely not bad.

Besides, not every weapon has to be competitively viable. Just like not every mech variant has to be competitively viable.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 April 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[Roland]

El Bandito, on 08 April 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

People use AC10 on many mechs. AC 10 is fine. Not great, but fine.

AC5 is slightly less used but it is definitely not bad.

People also use machine guns on many mechs.

It's not because those weapons are anything less than terrible.. it's because lots of folks don't understand the fundamental mechanics of mechwarrior, and thus construct terrible mech loadouts.

[El Bandito]

Roland, on 08 April 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

People also use machine guns on many mechs. It's not because those weapons are anything less than terrible.. it's because lots of folks don't understand the fundamental mechanics of mechwarrior, and thus construct terrible mech loadouts.

"Pros" can spam their UAC5s and AC20s all they want. All they do is go for the best weapons/cheese/tactics possible every single time. More you go for top, more you see cookie-cutter builds and it gets ******* boring. Even if AC10s are buffed, as long as AC20 is even SLIGHTLY better, they will still stick with AC20.

As I said above: Not every weapon has to be competitively viable. Just like not every mech variant has to be competitively viable. Just like not every champion, or rune has to be competitively viable in LoL.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 April 2013 - 05:48 AM.

[3rdworld]

El Bandito, on 08 April 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

"Pros" can spam their UAC5s and AC20s all they want. All they do is go for the best weapons/cheese/tactics possible. Even if AC10s are buffed, as long as AC20 is even SLIGHTLY better, they will still stick with AC20.

Let them be.

So some people understand what makes weapons / loadouts / mechs good. so we shouldn't buff the weapons that are bad?

[Roland]

El Bandito, on 08 April 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

"Pros" can spam their UAC5s and AC20s all they want. All they do is go for the best weapons/cheese/tactics possible every single time. More you go for top, more you see cookie-cutter builds and it gets ******* boring. Even if AC10s are buffed, as long as AC20 is even SLIGHTLY better, they will still stick with AC20.

As I said above: BNot every weapon has to be competitively viable. Just like not every mech variant has to be competitively viable.

Your post here doesn't make any sense.
There's no reason to not make every weapon competitively viable.

You're basically saying, "Well, sure.. those weapons are trash, but some folks want to run trash!"
No they don't.

It's even more nonsensical to say, "Those guys are running cheese, and are lame! But don't improve the trash weapons!"

[MustrumRidcully]

3rdworld, on 08 April 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

So some people understand what makes weapons / loadouts / mechs good. so we shouldn't buff the weapons that are bad?

Of course not - don't you like it if you can look at a mech build and know the player must be clueless for running that build?