112 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

DV McKenna, on 08 April 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

Actually i bet i would. DPS is not a great viable option here in MWO. It would be great to have private lobbies to put peoples terrible theories to test..alas...PGI you have failed us all!

As soon as sync drop is back, it's on. I never lost a 1v1 duel with my D-DC aside from odd Stalkers and Atlai. Hunchies are pain when shooting me while I am engaged but 1v1? That's one dead Hunchback.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 April 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Destoroyah]

I think the guass and AC20 just need to have 1 sec added to their cooldown while they would still be great alpha weapons a person that maintains a good solid lock on you could possibaly do more with lighter ballistics. As for Ultra5's I think lowering the HP to 6-8 would help make them less desirable over the normal 5, afterall the more complex the mechanism the easier it is to break something important. Although I think the AC5 and AC2 could use a slight heat reduction.

[Steel Claws]

Thontor, on 08 April 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Maybe if they actually used the weapons, and learned how to use their strengths to their advantage, instead of just doing what everyone else is doing they would understand that they are not bad weapons and they have many advantages over the so called "acceptable" ballistic weapons.

You think we haven't used them? If I hadn't tried them several times and came to the same conclusions many others have I wouldn't have posted in the first place. There are better optons and not just for competitive play.

jeffsw6, on 08 April 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

Firing a medium laser is 5 heat. AC5 and UAC5 are both 1 heat.

I'm sorry but a difference of 4 heat isn't crap when you take into account that I can load a whole bunch of double heat sinks for the weight of that AC and it's ammo.

El Bandito, on 08 April 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Opinion.

Based on many variables.

Do you think a medium laser boating D-DC can beat AC5 boating D-DC?

Ummm a DDC can't boat ML. But I would take a Hunchie 4P vs any atlas running AC5s any day of the year yes.

[Steel Claws]

El Bandito, on 08 April 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

As soon as sync drop is back, it's on. I never lost a 1v1 duel with my D-DC aside from odd Stalkers and Atlai. Hunchies are pain when shooting me while I am engaged but 1v1? That's one dead Hunchback.

I got 5 on McKenna.

[Steadfast]

http://bg.battletech.com/
You may ask them to crunch the numbers more to the liking of you min/ maxers/ customizers.
Other than that, everythings fine - if the weapon is subpar in your book, don't use it and boat something else.
just my opinion, yours may vary.
Cheers
Daniel

Edited by Steadfast, 08 April 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[El Bandito]

Steel Claws, on 08 April 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Ummm a DDC can't boat ML. But I would take a Hunchie 4P vs any atlas running AC5s any day of the year yes.

1. I was showing that gentleman that every thing is variable and it is a folly to think medium lasers are better than AC5s in every situation.

2. As I said before--as soon as sync drop is back on, my D-DC will show everyone here that it can beat any Hunchies 1v1 while sporting dual AC5's--among other weapons. Challengers accepting 24/7.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 April 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

El Bandito, on 08 April 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

As soon as sync drop is back, it's on. I never lost a 1v1 duel with my D-DC aside from odd Stalkers and Atlai. Hunchies are pain when shooting me while I am engaged but 1v1? That's one dead Hunchback.

Raw DPS is fine for dueling. You only have one target to deal with, and you can usually close the distance with careful use of cover

High burst is important in team matches because the entire team is focus firing a single target with a high damage burst, then ducking back behind cover. The Raw DPS team against the High-Burst team usually finds its down 2 or 3 mechs by the time they can catch the Burst team in the open.

[KinLuu]

AC20 and UAC5 simply need to be nerfed.

They outclass most other ballistics by a fair ammount.

[El Bandito]

Eldragon, on 08 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Raw DPS is fine for dueling. You only have one target to deal with, and you can usually close the distance with careful use of cover High burst is important in team matches because the entire team is focus firing a single target with a high damage burst, then ducking back behind cover. The Raw DPS team against the High-Burst team usually finds its down 2 or 3 mechs by the time they can catch the Burst team in the open.

Correct. And I was talking about 1v1 situation.

[Joseph Mallan]

The problem with this conversation is the elitism of those saying AC10/5 suck. AC 10s are a solid medium range Ballistic. The reason to take one is preference. I had quite a bit of success with a Cat-K with AC10s and Mediums. Success that did not transfer to use of Gauss on the same chassis. Jager with 2 AC10s and 2-4 Mediums also solid numbers. So IF if the problem seems to be performance with the weapon platform the problem isn't the weapon, but it is the user. Are there better weapons than AC5 & 10. Yes. Are there worse? Yes.

DocBach made 9th place In a Centurion with a stock AC10. It got me to look at the weapon again. I am glad I did.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

El Bandito, on 08 April 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Correct. And I was talking about 1v1 situation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, Just pointing out that MWO is a team-game and building for dueling has its drawbacks.

If I find myself in a 1v1 duel, that means I made a mistake.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

The AC10 is in this no-mans land of not quite the power of the AC20/Gauss, for only slightly less tonnage. Yes it is possible to do well in them, I have myself, but anecdotes are meaningless because you cannot control for the opponent's skill and team makeup. Extreme Example: Its easy to do well with the AC10 if your opponent brings a machine guns and LRMs. The only real way to test it would be either crunching numbers and multiple playtests in a row, using the same mechs and players each time.

If the AC10, AC2, and AC5 had a just slightly faster refire rate, and more ammo per ton, I would use them. As it stands the Gauss, UAC5, or AC20 does the job better.

[Steel Claws]

So far all I'm seeing is "IMO it's fine" or "I'm a better pilot than you so I can use them right."

Not one of you who say it's fine are looking at the cold hard facts of the matter - which is the weight for damage your doing. Sure the AC 10 has better range but in this day and age of limited visibility on quite a number of maps and that the normal engagement ranges on all but 2 maps is less than 400 meters, that isn't enough of a reason to load one on. I'm not saying that they can't be used - it's more like a "I could use a scissors to cut my lawn instead of a mower" but why would I want to kind of thing.

AC 10 damage = 2 ML. Oh wait they have more range - but they also have travel time and an ammo dependency and we get all this for - wait for it - an extra ten tons. What a bargain. I'm simply dazzled by the thought process. And then the AC 5 is an even worse comparison. Sure some people load them on mechs with other weapoins and do OK - but is it the ACs that make it OK or the other weapons? The example of the 2 AC 10 4 ML K2 for example. The 4 ML do as much damage as the 2 AC 10s.

Eldragon, on 08 April 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

The AC10 is in this no-mans land of not quite the power of the AC20/Gauss, for only slightly less tonnage. Yes it is possible to do well in them, I have myself, but anecdotes are meaningless because you cannot control for the opponent's skill and team makeup. Extreme Example: Its easy to do well with the AC10 if your opponent brings a machine guns and LRMs. The only real way to test it would be either crunching numbers and multiple playtests in a row, using the same mechs and players each time.

If the AC10, AC2, and AC5 had a just slightly faster refire rate, and more ammo per ton, I would use them. As it stands the Gauss, UAC5, or AC20 does the job better.

Amen brother.

Edited by Steel Claws, 08 April 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[VarietyOfCells]

The reason I personally love the AC5 is heat. My Jagger with quad AC5s and double engine heat sinks (no additional heat sinks) takes 70 seconds to overheat on Tourmaline if I'm only firing my AC5s. That's 70 seconds of constant 20 damage after 20 after 20. On any cold map I run out of ammo before I overheat. The constant barrage is a big part of what makes the AC5 great. I can keep continuous pressure on my long range targets, which makes them back off or be dead. The weapon definitely has a use.

[Escef]

I've used twin AC5/twin LL on a K2 for a long while now. It's a solid support build. The key to keep in mind is that the K2 tends to draw attention just for being a K2. People have come to expect twin gauss, twin AC20, quad LLs, or quad PPCs. And people have learned that the cockpit is an easy target.

BUT... If opfor has their attention grabbed by someone else, you will be free to pour out a nutty amount of damage.

The AC5 is a support weapon, pure and simple. If you can't run at least 2 of them, don't run them at all. And don't expect to be the guy racking up kills. But on a decent team, you can rack up damage totals that rivals many assault builds. It's a weapon for sandblasting armor.

The real weakness of the AC5 is that right now the meta is in hit&run/pop-tart/peek-a-boo mode. Which does favor high alpha builds over DPS builds.

[Skunk Wolf]

Steel Claws, on 08 April 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

First off this isn't about useage. It's pure and simple numbers. If they are so great why does almost nobody use them?

Look at what you said - "2 AC 10s is a long ranged AC 20 hit" 24 tons of weapons and 14 slots to do what you can do with 14 tons and 10 slots and this seems reasonable to you?

As for quad AC 5s - I love seeing them because I know I can chew them up and take very little damage.

Absolutely reasonable. You get more shots per ton of ammunition, the weapon doesn't explode when hit, you can mount it on anything with an XL engine and ballistic slots that are not in the head or legs, with a very reasonable ammunition load you can be in the fight for the whole match. Your argument is totally lacking ammunition count and staying power. Miss a Gauss shot because of Lagshield^TM and it's a real tick off because of the ammunition investment. Miss an AC10 or AC5 salvo, correct aim and try again Bragg.

Five tons of AC10 ammo is only five crit slots that can kill you, Gauss is much more.

[Barghest Whelp]

Roland, on 08 April 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Steel Claws is correct. The AC10 and AC5 are currently trash tier weapons.

Folks who are using those weapons are basically just running poor, sub-optimal configurations.

Currently, the only truly viable ballistic weapons are:
Gauss
AC20
UAC5 (and this only if you understand how to not make it jam on the first shot, which lots of folks don't seem to grasp fully)

AC5's are garbage, AC10's are garbage.. The AC2 is kind of garbage, in that it at least serves some useful niche, but is generally outclassed by the gauss if you want long range.

The big reason why the lower caliber AC's are garbage is because DPS is generally meaningless in this game. Large caliber weapons are more useful for killing mechs, because you want to generate high alpha strikes.

Once you get down to the AC5, as Steel correctly points out, you can get the same damage for ONE ton with a medium laser.

I agree that high alpha is usually better than dps. That is, the dps needs to be really extreme before it's worth it. As in 3xUAC5 Illya extreme. Kind of like core the CT of an atlas in five seconds extreme.

But that being said, we can't know if the AC2/5/10 will be more useful with a dps buff unless we try. The way things are right now the game certainly leans more towards alpha than dps. I was kind of thinking that this clearly means that the right way to go is buff dps weapons.

AC2's are an entirely different kettle of fish though. Dps wise they're fine, but they cause way too much heat and are way too ammo hungry. An increase of shots per ton and a heat reduction would do them a lot of favours. That being said, they're useless on their own, but boating them shows their true potential (watch macs video on the 6xAC2 dakkamech and you'll discover the true power of AC2's).

I dunno, it just seems like the logical way to go.

[Roland]

I'm honestly amazed at this point how people are willing to actually defend terrible weapons as though they were not terrible.

AC10 K2's? Really?

Yes, I've seen that build. And every single time I've ever seen it, it's died a horrific death to my K2 which is running REAL weapons. Usually before it's even able to get close enough to scratch my paint.

But seriously, if folks think that such a build is worth running, more power to you.... But you folks should really NEVER complain about anything any other pilot is running, suggesting that it's somehow unfair that their build is so much better than yours... because when you have the issues of your build clearly laid out in front of you, you apparently deny it.

Lately, I've been having a ball running a spider... but I'm under no illusions that the spider is somehow a competitive chassis. When I go up against a raven 3L, if he is even remotely competent, he should house me every time. Part of the reason I run the spider is because when I kill a raven it means that I was WAY better than he was.. not that the spider is somehow equivalent in strength to the 3L.

[hercules1981]

Mayb a bump to ammo per ton of both ac5 and ac10 to about 33 to 35 round for ac5 and 18 to 20 for the ac10. But I will say after doing some math the ac5 will do about 45 damage after 15 seconds witch is equal to an ultra that fired for 10 seconds and then jammed(4.55 dps for 10 sec.= 45 damage then 5 second jam) I no it's only a 25% jam rate but as a constant user of ultras I really can't remember a time when after 10 seconds of all out firing did it not jam, so ac5 really isn't as bad as I think some make it out to be. Possibly 7 tons or just 3 crits would make it for useable too.

Edited by hercules1981, 08 April 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[peve]

I still am not sure if AC10 or UAC5 is better for my Dragon.

With AC10 I must use SRM6 and 4 MLAS @107kph.
With UAC5 I can take LRM10 and 4 MLAS @107kph.

Both are very good mechs. LRM version was better before LRM nerf. Now they are quite even, although one is more support mech and the other is striker.

Dunno, dunno. But AC10 is the heaviest I can use here.

Oh, and before you say they suck: these are for fun, not minmaxing. I understand they are not optimal, since they are Dragons...

Edited by peve, 08 April 2013 - 07:49 AM.