34 replies to this topic

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Just a thread on my views and perceptions of the combo of streaks on ECM lights. Not ECMs or Streaks alone. I am a SDR-5D pilot, and have some major hangups on the current function of streaks in tandem with ECMs. Alone, ECMs and Streaks are both manageable aspects of the game. Placed on the same mech together, the combo has made non-streaks lights obsolete in a light vs light role. Ravens and 2Ds can even chase you through your own group, simply landing streaks and missing with everything else, and still kill you before you even have a chance to kill them.

1: The ability of streaks to land hits is severely disproportionate compared to other weapons. In any fight, the player who is able to land streaks will always have the advantage over lights and mediums, as the damage they deal and their hit rate make them far deadlier than any other weapon over any period of time. (Unless you are large or easy to hit. Not the case with ECM/Streak lights.)

This hit problem is due mainly to the ability to fire streaks from any angle and expect them to land, even if your lock as recently decayed fully. I'm all for them tracking to strike targets, but their turn rate should be severely reduced, making them easy to hit with, but only if your target is near your crosshairs. There is no way to dodge except being in cover, but despite huge size differences, most lights run at the same general speed cap, making heavier ones infinitely superior to lighter ones. There is no advantage to taking a lighter Light.

2: For their weight, streaks deal far far more damage in their game run than any other weapon of its size. Comparatively, SRM2s deal drastically less damage during a game, and are almost useless in terms of hitting targets reasonably without artemis, which brings the weight of the less useful equipment to .5 tons more. Ammo is far less easy to waste. Even larger SRMs perform less well than streaks for hit and damage rates. Lasers cannot even scratch an enemy compared to streaks, despite having higher firepower, making them useless when streaks are fielded against you. Even with the changes, any ECM mech can expect to deal more damage in a run with streaks than with SRMs. (Lights, that is. The D-DC Atlas isn't unbalanced imho and loves SRMs.)

3: The amount of effort required to use Streaks is negligible. They hit from any angle, they always deal full damage, they use very little ammo and they are the end-all anti-light weapon. Combining these with an ECM on a single mech without any disbenefit to the user is the defenition of unbalanced. By giving streaks to ECM toting mechs, all other Light mechs have had their purpose negated by sheer comparative uselessness.

All the users want is for 3L pilots to have to make as much effort for kills as anyone else, and with the current streak/ecm model on the 3L and 2D, this is nowhere near the case. I played a 3L for a few days, and scored stupid high without breaking any sweats. It made me feel gross simply walking around killing people who had no chance to fight back. It wasnt rewarding and it wasn't fun, either for me or for the lights I knocked over. It's just... a joke. A really bad joke.

Thanks for the updates PGI, I look forward to this issue eventually being addressed, so that when you release the flea, it doesn't suffer the same utter failure as the TDK or the SDR. Or the TBT-7M for that matter. Streaks need to require effort and follow some basic physics already, so that we can get back to playing a game that actually has strategy for light pilots.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 08 April 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[MasterErrant]

I get freindly fire with streaks all the time...they hit anything that blocks them especiallyint close range furballs.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

MasterErrant, on 08 April 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I get freindly fire with streaks all the time...they hit anything that blocks them especiallyint close range furballs.

The irony is the streaks appear to strike friendly target, but invisably continue traveling to damage your original target also. Give it a good long watch, it's exactly what they do. Sometimes, my teammates wont even take damage from them exploding on their back, but they still hit my org target.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 08 April 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[Josh Davion]

Exactly, good sir! This is the sole issue that I find the most frustrating with MWO. No-skill builds that just wreck anything they come across. The Ultimate Cheese, imo. I've been a light pilot since the start of Closed Beta when the collective population was around 500 at any one time. And since then I've all but abandoned Light 'mechs due to the one META of the current game: Streaks+ECM = 99% Win.

So here's the question: "What to do to balance ECM and Streaks?"
Or was the purpose of this thread simply to thank PGI for their failure to listen to the vocal community?

[gottill]

1. anyone can use thes builds... (seems fair to me)
2. mwo is about teamplay. so if an enemy ecm/streaker follows u into ure team, just stand stil and aim properly. so he has to decide if he wants to do the same (or try to circle u in a steady orbit) or run away.
3. stay near other ecm-mates, so he has to counter and make himself fulnerable.


i have tried the this build on a commando. sometimes it works (most the time against non-team-playing enemys) and sometimes not (or most the time when facing teamplayers).

at the end it always comes to: never fight alone!

Edited by gottill, 08 April 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Hotthedd]

The problem with making ECM and SSRMs mutually exclusive is that hundreds of people would not have 3Ls and 2Ds to whine about.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Pretty much. My favored solution to the problem is a revision of how streaks function. They should fire much more similarly to SRMs in that they would follow a mostly straight path, but would veer up to 15 degrees in any direction towards the locked target's location + direction + speed. If you were aiming your crosshairs at or very near a target, you would hit it. If you were not aiming closely enough, the missile would veer towards their position still, but miss due to not turning at a fast enough rate.

Right now, you can fire from any angle (with lock or recent lock) and guarantee a hit, and that is a problem.

Just my 2CB.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 09 April 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[blinkin]

gottill, on 08 April 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

1. everyone MUST use these builds... (seems fair to me)
2. pray that you are near your team and that they care enough to help. then hold still so that an enemy nearby can blow you apart because you were stupid.
3. pray that someone else on your team has ECM then hide under their skirts instead of scouting, spotting targets, and being useful.


i have tried the this build on a commando. sometimes it works (most the time against non-team-playing enemys) and sometimes not (or most the time when facing teamplayers).

at the end it always comes to: never fight alone! or without streaks!

^^fixed that for ya.

[RoboPatton]

SSRM + ECM Seems to be the root of all evil in MWO. Since they said ECM is "functioning"... as ..."intended" maybe they will find some sanity in considering this sentiment.

[blinkin]

RoboPatton, on 09 April 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

SSRM + ECM Seems to be the root of all evil in MWO. Since they said ECM is "functioning"... as ..."intended" maybe they will find some sanity in considering this sentiment.

SSRMs were broken long before ECM showed up and the only change that has been added since they were first released in closed beta is a very small amount of scatter.

[RoboPatton]

I agree with OP. especially the part about using a 3L, but retiring it due to the feeling of -disgust. It's not what it was meant to be.

I got it day one, because I loved the Raven from past V. Games and Battletech nostalgia, but was disappointed to find it had gone from top recon mech, to top core'r mech.

[Percimes]

If streaks didn't love the CT so much they wouldn't be that lethal. Now, not only do they have a high hit rate but they hit almost always at the same place. That's what makes them so strong.

[MasterErrant]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 08 April 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

The irony is the streaks appear to strike friendly target, but invisably continue traveling to damage your original target also. Give it a good long watch, it's exactly what they do. Sometimes, my teammates wont even take damage from them exploding on their back, but they still hit my org target.

that's kind of funny since all of the "team kills" I have save one are from streaks. fired by a commando 2d I know what you are talking about happens but it's not consistent.

RoboPatton, on 09 April 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

I agree with OP. especially the part about using a 3L, but retiring it due to the feeling of -disgust. It's not what it was meant to be.

I got it day one, because I loved the Raven from past V. Games and Battletech nostalgia, but was disappointed to find it had gone from top recon mech, to top core'r mech.

yeah and you'll note that not one of the stock ravens here carries the weapon it was designed to carry....they turned it into a mini assault mech did every thing they could to screw it's team play usefullness...

i'm not sure how serious the CT problem is It does happen a lot but it's also a low damage weapon. and any "clustering weapon is going to hit the CT more often than any other location it's just math.

[MasterErrant]

RoboPatton, on 09 April 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

SSRM + ECM Seems to be the root of all evil in MWO. Since they said ECM is "functioning"... as ..."intended" maybe they will find some sanity in considering this sentiment.

I don't agree with many of the choices the devs made in implementing the game many of the changes they made appear to be "just because they could" and show no real understanding of the underlying system.

the only thing broken about ECM is the "all or nothing approach. and they've moderated that somewhat.
I beleive that the extreme acc of ballistics is far more broken. as are the movement physics

Edited by MasterErrant, 09 April 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[CancR]

the problem is that there is no respect for cannon MW games and battle tech rules.

I touched on ECM here http://mwomercs.com/...m-guardian-ecm/ and how in Mechwarrior 4, ecm followed cannon and no one complained about it BECAUSE IT WASN'T BROKEN.

Streaks will need the same treatment as the Ramones said (Next verse, same as the first verse) GO BACK TO CANNON BECAUSE IT'S NOT BROKEN.

Streaks should as cannon dictates
-Be as difficult to hit with as any weapon is (NOT EASIER!)
-Lose lock after every shot, and have to regain lock after it cools down
-Have a large spread

I don't think if they did that, any one would think they are broken.

[MasterErrant]

CancR, on 09 April 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

the problem is that there is no respect for cannon MW games and battle tech rules.

I touched on ECM here http://mwomercs.com/...m-guardian-ecm/ and how in Mechwarrior 4, ecm followed cannon and no one complained about it BECAUSE IT WASN'T BROKEN.

Streaks will need the same treatment as the Ramones said (Next verse, same as the first verse) GO BACK TO CANNON BECAUSE IT'S NOT BROKEN.

Streaks should as cannon dictates
-Be as difficult to hit with as any weapon is (NOT EASIER!)
-Lose lock after every shot, and have to regain lock after it cools down
-Have a large spread

I don't think if they did that, any one would think they are broken.

A part of you agrees with you. but this is a far faster game and Cannon SSRMs just wouldn't work. there has to be something that allows slow mechs to hit super fast mechs. and streaks are it. I agree that they spread to little right now. but so do LRMs and LB10X spreads too much. the ppc effect on ecm needs to be lentghened to around 1.5 time the cooldown rate of the slowest weapon in the game. and line of sight locks on LRMs need to be effective on eECM sheilded mechs.

I think in this format I would have made ECM block missile locks on the equipped mech in one more and hide mechs from seneors in an area in the other... and I think Counter should be a BAP option...

[CancR]

MasterErrant, on 09 April 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

there has to be something that allows slow mechs to hit super fast mechs.

And that can't be skill. Oh hell no. Skill has been out dated since the early 2000's we NEED to have the game mechanics coddle players but we can't expect players to grow in talent or skill and figure out methods in dealing with a challenge games NEED an easy button where they can just press m1 to win.

Edited by CancR, 09 April 2013 - 10:12 PM.

[Vincian]

To be honest, I cannot stand that ECMStreak whining anymore.

I played a Raven 3L for some time now and stopped playing it, because I was looking for a new game experience.

But changing the leg hit boxes did something to make the playing of Ravens harder. And in my opinion there is the psychological effect of playing a 3L: You are preferred target, because you are THE dangerous raven variant.

And If I am not wrong in this matter, the nerfing of the missiles reduced the damage of the SSRMs, too.

With my new ECM Cicada I do mostly as much damage as with my 3L. So for me nothing has changed, except that I have to play with another two variants I dont want to play with.

Someone or something is always on the top or the best. At that is the Raven RVN-3L for the Lights and the Cicada. I learnt to live with that. My Cicada is no match for a 3L. Where is the problem?

So: Stop whining.

Edited by Vincian, 09 April 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[Mypa333]

Vincian, on 09 April 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

To be honest, I cannot stand that ECMStreak whining anymore.

I played a Raven 3L for some time now and stopped playing it, because I was looking for a new game experience.

But changing the leg hit boxes did something to make the playing of Ravens harder. And in my opinion there is the psychological effect of playing a 3L: You are preferred target, because you are THE dangerous raven variant.

And If I am not wrong in this matter, the nerfing of the missiles reduced the damage of the SSRMs, too.

With my new ECM Cicada I do mostly as much damage as with my 3L. So for me nothing has changed, except that I have to play with another two variants I dont want to play with.

Someone or something is always on the top or the best. At that is the Raven RVN-3L for the Lights and the Cicada. I learnt to live with that. My Cicada is no match for a 3L. Where is the problem?

So: Stop whining.

Another Raven 3L pilot that poses as the victim.

As I've stated on another topic, my little brother, playing for the first time MWO with the Raven 3L that I bought(and sold after 14 matches because it felt like I'm cheating and required no effort in killing even assault mechs), scored a little bit over 400 damage in his first game.

I have 1000 played matches and with my SDR 5D I get 300, 350 damage per game but that's only in the last 50-100 matches. So I had to learn a lot, get some skills and my brother playing the Raven 3L, for the first time, scored 400 DAMAGE?! Is that normal to you ?

[gottill]

blinkin, on 09 April 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

gottill, on 08 April 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

1. everyone MUST use these builds... (seems fair to me)
2. pray that you are near your team and that they care enough to help. then hold still so that an enemy nearby can blow you apart because you were stupid.
3. pray that someone else on your team has ECM then hide under their skirts instead of scouting, spotting targets, and being useful.


i have tried the this build on a commando. sometimes it works (most the time against non-team-playing enemys) and sometimes not (or most the time when facing teamplayers).

at the end it always comes to: never fight alone! or without streaks!

^^fixed that for me because i want to become a layer when im grown up.
... ah, and by the way, my first trail will be about autors of dicionarys and how they are lieing about the definition of QUOTES!!!!!!!!111eleven

thx for the favour! its nice to have good people here to help out each other.

Edited by gottill, 10 April 2013 - 01:00 AM.