234 replies to this topic

[Kahoumono]

I see that my questions weren't answered. Would be nice if the devs could include the questions in a separate unanswere category citing why they weren't answered. Doesn't have to be a long explanation just which rules were broken or a link if the question had been answered previously.

[Destoroyah]

Genewen, on 08 April 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

I disagree. MGs should be deleted. They are weapons against infantry and non-armored targets and have no role to play in a game that only involves heavily armored mechs. Them being efficient against such would be stupid.

Untrue by TT standards the MG's did 2 damage(same as AC2) even before infantry were added and when they were they got a bonus tacked on when firing at infantry, but never did the base 2 damage to everything change to anything less then 2.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 08 April 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Wall 'o' text.

Some things that you overlooked while replying:



1. Of course people are scared to use an underpowered weapon.

2. Machine Guns fire 10 bullets per second. If each bullet did 0.12 damage, that makes for 1.2 DPS.

3. Damage per turn is meaningless in an environment where everything fires faster than once per ten seconds. If you must insist upon it: at 1.2 DPS, one MG would have 12 DPT (a 4 MG Spider would have 48 DPT). An AC/2 has 40 DPT, and most other weapons fall fairly near that area.

4. The heat of a Small Laser or four of them is hardly anything. The only mechs that have to worry about heat are usually lazor (and some dakka) boats like PPC Stalkers.

5. Small Lasers only need to be held on target for 0.75 seconds, and then you can take cover or w/e. A Machine Gun needs to be held on target constantly with no let-up, meaning that if you take cover you lose your not-so impressive DPS advantage. The Small Lazorer can also use cover to help dissipate a portion of his heat.

6. Machine Guns have a projectile velocity of 100m/s, which is the same as LRMs. This means that your accuracy against anything moving and/or while you are moving (if you're a light mech you have to move to survive!) is going to be pitiful. Your damage will spread out across multiple body parts and often even the surrounding terrain. This greatly lowers the effective DPS.

7. The ammo per ton would most likely be reduced to accompany an MG buff. At 1000 shots per ton, that would make for 120 damage per ton total (instead of 240 at 2000 rounds per ton).

8. You are seriously over-inflating the rate of DoT of MGs in your Jenner example. He would have to be overheated for a total of 100 seconds to receive the full damage per ton of Machine Guns. You're also assuming that he's stupid enough to let himself overheat in the first place instead of using linked-fire when his heat gets close to the brink.

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 08 April 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Some things that you overlooked while replying:



1. Of course people are scared to use an underpowered weapon.

2. Machine Guns fire 10 bullets per second. If each bullet did 0.12 damage, that makes for 1.2 DPS.

3. Damage per turn is meaningless in an environment where everything fires faster than once per ten seconds. If you must insist upon it: at 1.2 DPS, one MG would have 12 DPT (a 4 MG Spider would have 48 DPT).

4. The heat of a Small Laser or four of them is hardly anything. The only mechs that have to worry about heat are usually lazor (and some dakka) boats like PPC Stalkers.

5. Small Lasers only need to be held on target for 0.75 seconds, and then you can take cover or w/e. A Machine Gun needs to be held on target constantly with no let-up, meaning that if you take cover you lose your not-so impressive DPS advantage. The Small Lazorer can also use cover to help dissipate a portion of his heat.

6. Machine Guns have a projectile velocity of 100m/s, which is the same as LRMs. This means that your accuracy against anything moving and/or while you are moving (if you're a light mech you have to move to survive!) is going to be pitiful. Your damage will spread out across multiple body parts and often even the surrounding terrain. This greatly lowers the effective DPS.

7. The ammo per ton would most likely be reduced to accompany an MG buff. At 1000 shots per ton, that would make for 120 damage per ton total (instead of 240 at 2000 rounds per ton).

8. You are seriously over-inflating the rate of DoT of MGs in your Jenner example. He would have to be overheated for a total of 100 seconds to receive the full damage per ton of Machine Guns. You're also assuming that he's stupid enough to let himself overheat in the first place instead of using linked-fire when his heat gets close to the brink.

I'm going by a live test of recording for 10 seconds, and counting how many bullets are ACTUALLY fired by 1 MG. Not the game stats crap from smurfy. And I went by damage over time, for his damage to the 78 bullets fired in an actual 10 seconds of gameplay. Gameplay is what matters.

I'm doing all 4 guns firing at once non-stop. It'd be impossible to compare them in any other way. Otherwise the laser guy would do so much less. Wait, you mean the MG guy would overheat? Sorry but they don't overheat. Ever. And we're just saying you hit 100% of the time firing side by side at a stationary target.

Much like the Atlas eye (weakest point on an Atlas whose stats I know full well)
versus the leg or torso to get crit damage on an internal component, assumes the Atlas is stationary. I've killed with MGs getting ammo explosions. It's glorious when it happens. But the issue isn't the gun. You can currently kill anything within 1 minute and 40 seconds with 1 MG provided it is stationary and going for the eye at my 10 second sampling of MG fire being 78 rounds in 10 seconds. The requirement is to get 27 damage for that kill with steady aim.

Now if instead of that, you could viably go for a critical slot item like ammo, 75 bullets with just single crit damages would kill that target. And if the ammo exploding didn't kill, it'd cause so much internal damage he may as well be dead. Best case scenario that's a kill in 9 point something seconds with 1 MG. His method would take a lot longer, and relatively no goal just constant and boring hammering.

I'd rather strip the armor off with one weapon, then pelt in with another to get those crits. Makes it more exciting.

Trouble as I've been saying is the ammo has ten health instead of 3. I'd get a faster kill going for the engine than the ammo if engine crits were on. Picture that, don't even need to destroy the CT torso!

Pry off some armor, and shoot 75 bullets in there. Bam, dead. Take anything down with that. Pack on 4 MGs and an LPL + MG carrying Spider is more dangerous than a K2 with twin AC-20s.

Or his route... and they'd stay weak.

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 08 April 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Wait, you mean the MG guy would overheat? Sorry but they don't overheat. Ever. And we're just saying you hit 100% of the time firing side by side at a stationary target.

Not my words.

I said the 4x SL Jenner would only overheat if he was dumb enough to not manage his firing (i.e. using linked fire when on the brink). And if we're fighting light mechs, both of them are gonna be zipping around at high speeds; therefore making both of them a lot less accurate (this will affect the MG Spider more because of the aforementioned slow projectile speed).

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 08 April 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Not my words.

I said the 4x SL Jenner would only overheat if he was dumb enough to not manage his firing (i.e. using linked fire when on the brink). And if we're fighting light mechs, both of them are gonna be zipping around at high speeds; therefore making both of them a lot less accurate (this will affect the MG Spider more because of the aforementioned slow projectile speed).

So as oriiginally addressed. Stationary target billboard. Both mechs firing non-stop. No skill based semantics here as it'd ruin the math.

Also, those numbers you gave me from smurfy put MG damage at higher than my calculations. Ten seconds would give me 4 damage instead of my 3.12 based on 78 bullets in 10 seconds. Making the default MG twice as strong as the tabletop with a perfect 1:1 ratio as it is, PLUS the crit bonus damage bonus. But it's still "too weak"?

With that same ratio... the 0.12 idea would get us 1.20 damage per second, and 12 damage in 10 seconds, but still 240 damage in a ton of ammo if unchanged. 12 damage in 10 seconds to 2 times armor is a 6:1 damage ratio. 6 times more powerful at all times, versus a skill based version that's more in line with how it's supposed to be in both tabletop and reality.

Yet... still weaker than the potential of Bryan's way with my fix on ammo HP. Which also solves the LB-10 and some of the flamer issues as well!

Some people just need to learn how to use it, or use it more.

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[Genewen]

Destoroyah, on 08 April 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Untrue by TT standards the MG's did 2 damage(same as AC2) even before infantry were added and when they were they got a bonus tacked on when firing at infantry, but never did the base 2 damage to everything change to anything less then 2.

Are we playing TT here?
That obvious fact aside, I'd rather have an immersive game than one that tries to adhere to rules set by people who are so far removed from any military knowledge that the distance has to be measured in parsec if one wants to fit the number on an A4 sheet. Because rationally speaking, BattleTech is so full of (largely obvious) BS that it is sometimes just frustrating. If we were measuring the creator's capability of making good military sci-fi on a scale from 1 to 10 with 10 being the best mark, they'd approach zero - coming from the negatives.
If having a good game means we'd have to scrap or heavily alter some of the rules, even as a MW vet, I'd say go ahead!

Edited by Genewen, 08 April 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 08 April 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Also, those numbers you gave me from smurfy put MG damage at higher than my calculations. Making the default MG twice as strong as the table top. That makes it a perfect 1:1 ratio with table top as it is, PLUS the crit bonus. But it's still "too weak"?

1. I thought I made it pretty clear that I wanted the crit bonus removed from them entirely.

2. Almost everything in this game is stronger than TT. An AC/2 for instance does 40 damage per turn here in MWO (4 DPS). Against doubled armor, we can still consider it to be at 20 DPT...which is ten times stronger than its TT value. A UAC/5 in standard-fire mode is 22.75 DPT against doubled armor (5.6875 times stronger than TT). Some weapons go under those examples but not by too much. The 0.12 damage-per-bullet MG would be 3 times stronger than TT against our doubled armor here (12 DPT/TT damage of 2 = 6 times stronger, divided by 2 for double armor = 3 times stronger). That's not too far out of line.

3. I keep saying over and over that I want the ammo per ton reduced so it isn't 240 damage per ton.

4. My source is MWOWiki.org. :\

Koniving, on 08 April 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Some people just need to learn how to use it, or use it more.

Just because somebody gets a kill with it once in a while doesn't make it "good."

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[Koniving]

Deathlike, on 08 April 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Do we have a Jagermech edition of the MG video? That would be great.

We do.


Should hold you for now until I can do a more proper one.

Oh you meant the other guy's video of using only MGs against armor. That's unfair considering what it's supposed to do.
Byran's intention for the MG is a crit-seeking weapon, not an armor puncher. Honestly I can't see how a bullet that can't even make it 90 meters could possibly do dirt to a mech's armor. A deringer can beat 90 meters with a tiny .22 shell.

My solution keeps what PGI wants for the gun and ups its potential damage into the thousands when used against missile boats and ballistic-nuts... which when you think about it, are the only viable targets for an MG using spider anyway.

The other guy's only brings it into the hundreds for the total potential damage of hitting with every bullet. Making it just another ballistic weapon rather than something neat and unique.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 08 April 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

The other guy's only brings it into the hundreds for the total potential damage of hitting with every bullet. Making it just another ballistic weapon rather than something neat and unique.

No, the "other guy" wants the RVN-4X, CDA-3C, and SDR-5K to be able to hold their own ground against other mechs in a 1 on 1 as well as team-based setting. Just like any non-MG mech like the Raven, Jenner, or other light. The internal section of a mech is so weak that you can just blast the damned thing right off and destroy everything inside of it. If the internals were half or more of the section, then it might be worth something. That ain't the case here (internals make up only 25%, armor is 75%).

Crit-seeking is only good when armor is stripped. Everything else is good when armor is stripped as well as intact. Also, through-armor criticals would be necessary if PGI really wants to continue the crit-seeking illusion.

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

1. I thought I made it pretty clear that I wanted the crit bonus removed from them entirely.

In your version it is. In my calculations the crits were removed for my solution too.

I was talking about The Gun As It Stands Right Now In the Game does exactly as table top intended plus crits.

FupDup, on 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

2. Almost everything in this game is stronger than TT. An AC/2 for instance does 40 damage per turn here in MWO (4 DPS). Against doubled armor, we can still consider it to be at 20 DPT...which is ten times stronger than its TT value. A UAC/5 in standard-fire mode is 22.75 DPT against doubled armor (5.6875 times stronger than TT). Some weapons go under those examples but not by too much. The 0.12 damage-per-bullet MG would be 3 times stronger than TT against our doubled armor here (12 DPT/TT damage of 2 = 6 times stronger, divided by 2 for double armor = 3 times stronger). That's not too far out of line.

People cried the AC-2 is too weak. Some still do. If it wasn't sped up they'd be like you, crying the AC-2 is too weak. Or that the guns are too slow. Oh everyone still whines about that.

Issue is my method wouldn't make this "just another ballistic" and keep it exactly as it is in game, fix issues with other weapons, and magically make it so much more powerful without changing the gun's stats.

It's like fixing LRMs. Instead of changing the damage, why not change the missile's speed? Change it's accuracy? Why does every fix have to be the damage it deals? That isn't the actual problem.

The MG isn't the real problem of it, the LB-10, and the flamer feeling weak. It's the fact that we can't get the ammo to explode in a practical way. That's my point. The AC-2 is already a good, weak weapon with decent range. What Bryan has presented is a skill based weapon, that gives you an immersive goal of stripping armor first then spraying MGs. This helps against boating. This gives you a goal. This gets you into the game! The problem is.. nothing goes boom due to super levels of insane health on ammo boxes. Defeating the point.

My fix, change the ammo box health. You get all that immersive fun, plus you get a kill in 75 MG bullets. And you didn't even have to touch the damage on it. We also get flamers that DO something! We get LB-10s that people are AFRAID of. They ALL become good guns from this one fix. And we didn't change any damage values.

FupDup, on 08 April 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

4. My source is MWOWiki.org. :\
Just because somebody gets a kill with it once in a while doesn't make it "good."

Your source is a rarely updated user made program. May as well quote Wikipedia about the civil war in Ethiopia. At least Smurfy takes the data from game files. My own came from spraying the bullets with a recording device and counting bullets to the timer.

It's also a half ton MG firing bullets suitable for let's say a 1.00 caliber sniper rifle at a walking tank with far more advanced tech's armor (since the .50 cal's actual bullet weight at 2,000 bullets still didn't get close to a ton).

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 08 April 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

No, the "other guy" wants the RVN-4X, CDA-3C, and SDR-5K to be able to hold their own ground against other mechs in a 1 on 1 as well as team-based setting. Just like any non-MG mech like the Raven, Jenner, or other light. The internal section of a mech is so weak that you can just blast the damned thing right off and destroy everything inside of it. If the internals were half or more of the section, then it might be worth something. That ain't the case here (internals make up only 25%, armor is 75%).

Crit-seeking is only good when armor is stripped. Everything else is good when armor is stripped as well as intact. Also, through-armor criticals would be necessary if PGI really wants to continue the crit-seeking illusion.

I know what you're going for, and while I respect it, I'm more inclined to Bryan's vision. SRMs, LB-10s, and MGs are supposed to be used after you get through the armor to deal crits in special die rolls in TT. And yes I am told they do reference these. Right now no one uses SRMs like that because they do just fine on their own. Too good in fact.

I'd rather not see someone boating 6 MGs because he can suddenly do more damage than the AC-20 Jager next to him.

I'll stick to the current system with a practical fix on the way it's intended.

Although to make those mechs more useful.

• 4X has an SRM-6. It's not meant to fight solo either. It's a scout accompanied by larger mechs in a lance. Two medium lasers and SRM, then crit with MGs. People don't pay much attention to the 4x Raven when there's a 3-L nearby. You should try being sneaky. While a big brawl is going on, swoop in behind something and fire a few times. It pays. It's not meant to be an anti-light. It's an anti-heavy/anti-assault and is intended to fight in a group. Not one on one.
  
• The Spider? It's harassment. Those MGs are meant to be used while it RIPS ARMOR off with its bare hands after mounting on top of a mech. That part is broken, so it should have gotten more than a center torso laser mount. But an LPL is all you really need. I'll get some footage for ya of an MG Spider, default rig and my LPL/4MG rig.
  
• Now that Cicada? He's got a big energy weapon to make up for the 4 MGs to strip armor off.

​I spent time with the default rigs before I made my own.

I'm going with the solution that's more in line with what's there already, as we know they won't change the whole thing. That's never happened before and it won't happen now. It'd be like expecting them to fix ECM. My fix is easier, it's more in tune with what Bryan wants, it's more likely to happen, and it fixes issues with other weapons too without needing lots of re-tweaking. You have your fix, I have mine. I'm just more inclined to believe mine would actually happen. That's all.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

PropagandaWar, on 08 April 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

However if we have the option not to play against them it don't bother me.

Because you know... dividing the playerbase is a great idea.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 08 April 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

• 4X has an SRM-6. It's not meant to fight solo either. It's a scout accompanied by larger mechs in a lance. Two medium lasers and SRM, then crit with MGs. People don't pay much attention to the 4x Raven when there's a 3-L nearby. You should try being sneaky. While a big brawl is going on, swoop in behind something and fire a few times. It pays. It's not meant to be an anti-light. It's an anti-heavy/anti-assault and is intended to fight in a group. Not one on one.

A Raven 2X with 2LL + 2ML (or plenty of other lights) can solo-fight as well as fight in a group. Sometimes your team is dead or not around to help you (i.e. if you're capping). It can also harass just as well as that Spider if not better because of more damage and possibly more range (depends on what the Spider is packing in his CT).

Koniving, on 08 April 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

I'm going with the solution that's more in line with what's there already, as we know they won't change the whole thing. That's never happened before and it won't happen now. It'd be like expecting them to fix ECM. My fix is easier, it's more in tune with what Bryan wants, it's more likely to happen, and it fixes issues with other weapons too without needing lots of re-tweaking. You have your fix, I have mine. I'm just more inclined to believe mine would actually happen. That's all.

TBH, I don't think they're going to do anything to MGs, be it crit-enhancements or damage or anything at all. They said WAI, after all...

And as said before, 75% armor and 25% internals per body part doesn't exactly help matters (internal health is so low that it will probably be blasted off before you can crit-seek everything out of the section). If it were reversed, then maybe it might be workable.

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

2 MGs are worse than 1 Small Laser, 3 worse than 1 Medium, 4 worse than 1 Medium Pulse, and only 1 mech can carry more. Of course it needs a buff to be a real weapon. 6 have a DPS of 2.4, don't tell me that heat matters when you devoted so much tonnage and slots to 2.4 DPS, that's a little less than 1 Large Pulse, with way less range and more spread.

MGs were in the game before infantry, so why is this a problem?

MGs and A/C-2, same damage in game, so why so far different in MWO? You want to remain true to TT, lets go full derp and make MGs have DPS 4 and see what happens!

Nothing about the MG looks good, critting stuff inside, and "shredding internals" are not the same thing at all.

Lastly, 6MG Spider wreaking an Atlas in the back? (Impossible, but...), even at what many players suggest, 1 DPS, that's a Jenner-F, a Jenner-F with XL300 and DHS will have like 1.63 HE with 6 smalls, yes it generates heat, but then again, it actually will do that damage, and the MG will spread and be worthless.

About the Flea:

I would agree about DOA on some parts, but I've been doing calculations on it, and I'm really surprised more lights that aren't Ravens and Jenner and sometime Spiders don't use STD engines. At the 170 engine cap, the weight saved with STD->XL is not really worth it, and it still has the same speed, and remember, hitboxes are part of the balance set (I mean look at mickey mouse catapults!). What if Fleas were designed with side torsos that covered the center, meaning they couldn't be CTed unless the side was gone. There is a lot of potential, but reading what was said about MGs makes me think it will be DOA. MASC won't be enough to save it. Here is the build I've made for it, remember a Jenner has 3.5 internal and 2 with Endo, while a Flea has 2 and 1, so the max tonnage is 21 with endo, 21.5 without. A ton of ammo is there for MASC, which is supposed to be 1 ton and 1 slot, if sarna is correct and MWO works it the same way. Something like...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...de66669e2272162

Half ton free, not much to spend it on I suppose.

[Koniving]

ICEFANG13, on 08 April 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

2 MGs are worse than 1 Small Laser, 3 worse than 1 Medium, 4 worse than 1 Medium Pulse, and only 1 mech can carry more. Of course it needs a buff to be a real weapon. 6 have a DPS of 2.4, don't tell me that heat matters when you devoted so much tonnage and slots to 2.4 DPS, that's a little less than 1 Large Pulse, with way less range and more spread.

MGs were in the game before infantry, so why is this a problem?

With the current setup, if engine crits were turned on, you could kill an Atlas within a minimum of 3 seconds of firing 4 MGs after you stripped its armor. To test, take 4 MGs, go into testing grounds, strip armor off the right side of an Atlas. Fire MGs into the side torso. Watch the AC-20 explode in 3 to 4 seconds of firing ONLY MGs.

AC-20 has a maximum of 3.6 health according to the tests of 3 people in my group, that's assuming every single shot triple crits which we know they don't.

So if that's true, and if engines have 3 health...

Why does each ton of ammo have 10 health? That's the deal breaker there that would change how MGs feel. It's the point I've been trying to make, and am giving up on here.

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Engines have 15 health and you have to get through the armor first. There is a reason why people take real weapons to just remove the component, and when you bring 4, you've dedicated your mech heavily to that weapon system (even the Jager-DD with 6-2, you still used half of them to kill the mech, just gotta get through the armor first...).

[Dr Killinger]

Bryan Ekman, on 08 April 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Kanajashi: Can we have some sort of "First win of the day" type bonus like in League of Legends? (really any daily/weekly bonus would be awesome)
A: It’s coming in May.

If we can learn anything from WoW, it's that daily and weekly objectives keep people coming back for more. The more daily and weekly objectives we see in the future, the better!

Edited by Dr Killinger, 08 April 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 08 April 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

We do.

I should've been specific. I meant a 6 MG Jager video.

I just came from a game where the last two mechs was a Jenner-D (4 med+1 SRM4 IIRC) vs a Spider 5K (with 4 MGs+med laser). GUESS WHICH MECH WON? Hint: It wasn't the one with the MGs.

Before that 1v1 happened, the spider-5K had an awesome on the enemy team (the one with the 5K)... and I had to tell them to kill the awesome first... and the threat was gone. That was on RCN...

Edited by Deathlike, 08 April 2013 - 09:39 PM.

[Koniving]

Deathlike, on 08 April 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I should've been specific. I meant a 6 MG Jager video.

I just came from a game where the last two mechs was a Jenner-D (4 med+1 SRM4 IIRC) vs a Spider 5K (with 4 MGs+med laser). GUESS WHICH MECH WON? Hint: It wasn't the one with the MGs.

Before that 1v1 happened, the spider-5K had an awesome on the enemy team (the one with the 5K)... and I had to tell them to kill the awesome first... and the threat was gone. That was on RCN...

I'll go about making one tomorrow after I finish collecting default / stock footage of the 6 ballistic Jager DD. I'm up for running 6 MGs.

In the mean time... Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.



This below, is me. Got to love having a Camera Commando record snapshots as you play.

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2013 - 09:43 PM.