54 replies to this topic

[Suprentus]

Quote

CCQ 3: Why is Machine Gun damage so low?
A: Partly due to the nature of how MGs work in the TT rules, partially due to how we chose to make it useful. When equipping a MG, keep in mind that it is not meant to burn through armor but is very useful for tearing up internals (crits). Bumping MG damage will turn it into a laser that can be kept on with no heat penalty until it runs out of ammo. Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas! We are still investigating balance of the MG but don’t expect any significant increase in damage.

Ok, and?...

Suppose you make the MG's DPS equivalent to a Small Laser. Then why can't a Spider inflict 6x that with MGs while a Jenner can mount 6 Small Lasers no problem? If an Atlas would kindly stand still while I pound 6 Small Lasers into its back, then why is it all of a sudden devastating if it's 6 MGs doing the same damage? Heat? Give me a break, MGs require ammo, and SLs require heat sinks. It's an equal tradeoff if you ask me.

Edited by Suprentus, 08 April 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Tennex]

its not equivalent to a small laser. its 1/3 the dps for the same tonnage.

like you would have to be brain dead to mess up a MG buff.

Edited by Tennex, 08 April 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[Suprentus]

Tennex, on 08 April 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

its not equivalent to a small laser. its 1/3 the dps for the same tonnage.

like you would have to be brain dead to mess up a MG buff.

Well yeah, it's not equivalent right now. I'm saying if they did make it equivalent, why would that be "devastating?"

Edited by Suprentus, 08 April 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Tennex, on 08 April 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

its not equivalent to a small laser. its 1/3 the dps for the same tonnage.

like you would have to be brain dead to mess up a MG buff.

I think a better definition is close equivalency.

An HMG is actually more of an equivalent to the SL in TT, but has even short range.

[Team Leader]

Suprentus, on 08 April 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Well yeah, it's not equivalent right now. I'm saying if they did make it equivalent, why would that be "devastating?"

Because in the TT MGs aren't meant to damage mechs they're only for fighting infantry exclusively! Duhhhhh!
Seriously like I said in ask the devs if you let 6 of anything get easy access to your back armor, you're in for a bad time. I would rather it be MGs, because the guy has to STAND THERE and hit me, as opposed to a strafing run with lasers as he runs away to recharge and hit again. This is a totally unacceptable answer and reasoning.

Edited by Team Leader, 08 April 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Phoenix Gray]

Suprentus, on 08 April 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Ok, and?...

If the MG's DPS is equivalent to a Small Laser, then why can't a Spider inflict 6x that with MGs while a Jenner can mount 6 Small Lasers no problem? If an Atlas would kindly stand still while I pound 6 Small Lasers into its back, then why is it all of a sudden
devastating if it's 6 MGs doing the same damage? Heat? Give me a break, MGs require ammo, and SLs require heat sinks. It's an equal tradeoff if you ask me.

So when the Clans show up everybody moon the Piranha....

[Tennex]

Suprentus, on 08 April 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Well yeah, it's not equivalent right now. I'm saying if they did make it equivalent, why would that be "devastating?"

yeah
it would be better than the small laser. if they had the same DPS. because the MG has no heat.

but even then. the small laser is very very very mediocre weapon.


you'd have to be brain dead to mess up a MG buff.

Edited by Tennex, 08 April 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Felbombling]

Just give them a burst mechanic already and call it a day.

[One Medic Army]

Tennex, on 08 April 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

yeah
it would be better than the small laser. if they had the same DPS. because the MG has no heat.

No, it wouldn't, because the Small Laser would still have much higher burst damage even if the MG had equivalent DPS.
The SL does all it's 3 dmg in a period of .75 seconds followed by doing whatever else you want for the rest of the cooldown.

The MG does .4 dmg in 1 second. Then you need to keep your MGs pointed at the target to get your next .4 dmg.
The MG requires 100% time-on-target in addition to having the lowest dmg/ton of ammo in the game (whereas in TT it was the highest dmg/ton).
Buffing it to 1DPS by itself would hardly be OP as damage from MGs is ridiculously easy to spread, and hard to concentrate.

FFS if everyone's so scared of MGs just because they have zero heat then give them some heat generation, say 2-3 over 10 seconds. I'd gladly dedicate a couple heatsinks to MGs if it meant they could actually hurt something.

Edited by One Medic Army, 08 April 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Suprentus]

Tennex, on 08 April 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

yeah
it would be better than the small laser. if they had the same DPS. because the MG has no heat.

but even then. the small laser is very very very mediocre weapon.


you'd have to be brain dead to mess up a MG buff.

I'd beg to differ. The Small Laser is great; I use them very effectively on quite a few builds. That's a different matter, though.

I'd argue that what would be "better" between the two is completely subjective. With the MG, while you'd have no heat, you also have a limited amount of ammo, and it can explode on you. With the SL, you don't have that problem, but the heat is almost always manageable even without extra heatsinks.

Edited by Suprentus, 08 April 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Allister Rathe]

Tennex, on 08 April 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

its not equivalent to a small laser. its 1/3 the dps for the same tonnage.

like you would have to be brain dead to mess up a MG buff.

Not even.

A single machine gun isn't 1/3 the damage of a small laser for the same tonnage, it's literally 1/3 of the damage for 3x the tonnage due to the fact that for even one machine gun, you need an additional ton for ammunition in order to fire it at all. Compounded by the fact that you're carrying volatile ammo that could explode and rip up your internals. You might say that the lack of heat in a machine gun balances it to the small laser, but a single small laser's heat is so negligible as to be nonexistent.

I want to be able to use the ballistic slots on my Spider-5K, but there's frankly nothing that makes sense to put in there besides machine guns and they're more of a liability than an asset.

Frankly, it's kind of ridiculous. I like the *idea* of the crit-seeking machine gun, but in practice it's so useless that it ends up doing your 'Mech more harm than good.

Edited by Allister Rathe, 08 April 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Tennex, on 08 April 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

yeah
it would be better than the small laser. if they had the same DPS. because the MG has no heat.

but even then. the small laser is very very very mediocre weapon.


you'd have to be brain dead to mess up a MG buff.

1.2 DPS on an MG would be a good place to start. Yes, it is more than the base DPS for a SL, but the SL does it's damage in short bursts while the MG would have a continuous "beam". That is a significant difference. With 1.2 DPS the MG would probably only be doing 1.0 in most game situations, if that.

Edit: One Medic beat me to it. But since we are both Medics I will let it slide. This time.

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 08 April 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[El Penguin]

Are they seriously not going to buff the MG damage? Bumping it up doesn't even turn it into a laser since you have to face your target and aim for the whole entire duration to get lets say the same result for example. That's a big downside right there. I'm so confused why we can't just slowly bump it up. It's not like we are asking for it to shoot nukes.

[Silentium]

I never felt the need to equip these, are they 2 damage over 10 seconds ala TT or something? If so, that is crazy weak.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Silentium, on 08 April 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

I never felt the need to equip these, are they 2 damage over 10 seconds ala TT or something? If so, that is crazy weak.

0.04 damage per bullet, 10 bullets per second. 0.4 DPS.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

My 4X has 2 MG and my 3C has 4.
I am fine with the way they work. Learn to use them. You will have a BLAST! I do.
you people keep this up they will remove/lower the crits and buff the dmg by not enought to make up for the lack of crit they will remove. You cant have everything and should pick your battles.

[Noobzorz]

Tennex, on 08 April 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

its not equivalent to a small laser. its 1/3 the dps for the same tonnage.

like you would have to be brain dead to mess up a MG buff.

It's not the same tonnage at all, since you need ammo as well.

[Team Leader]

Tickdoff Tank, on 08 April 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

0.04 damage per bullet, 10 bullets per second. 0.4 DPS.

Assuming of course that all bullets hit (they won't) the same place (they definitely won't) in their effective range (good luck) and all while you continuously fire them (fat chance). So it's more like an effective 0.2 DPS

[Wildweasel1]

Imagine 2xAC20 and 2xMed. lasers Alpha'ing on any light mech. Oh wait you don't have to anymore because they made it possible with JMs. the solution is quite simple, buff them until everyone starts running with them, then back it off and call it a day.

[Zaptruder]

PGI are been obscenely obstinate in this matter.

Look... heat isn't the be all and end all balancing factor you seem to think it is PGI. It is *a factor*. But having no heat doesn't actually justify the complete neutering of a weapon system.

You've done all the work to make it a weapon system... why not give it an iota of viability by making it actually useful for stripping armor to a minimal capacity?

How much noise do we have to make on the subject matter before you change your minds? This is absurdity.