Excellent duels, thanks for sharing. If you do any more please upload them
Since you asked.
Default Timber Wolf Gamma (Charlie) Config.
Almost default Thunderbolt.
Mission: Attack / defend fuel depot (gas station). (Was more of a rally point).
LocationTVM-Iceless Fold Space Observatory Entertaining cats...
Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:05 AM
Its traces of a parallel universe leaking through MW:O, in that universe ghost heat was never implemented and sausages whilst illegal are made of the finest meats and only traded on the black markets of the ultra rich.
The issue is caused by Cryengines Temporal AA, which uses offset frames to create an AA effect. It is very low budget and has next to no system cost, however it can cause image ghosting (Halo effect).
The way to get around it is to use a non Temporal AA, which would give you MSAA, TXAA, or to disable PostAA. At this resolution, I want to disable PostAA, however the game is not accepting that command. Yes, I can set it to No AA, but the game does not take the command, it keeps PostAA on.
I went over this in depth with Matthew Craig, however he claims he could not replicate what I, and a great deal of others see.
Yes, I can simply use MSAA, or TXAA to bypass it. However at this resolution, I lack the firepower to do so. 4K is still a young res, and it will take a while for the industry to catch up.
Transcript from my exchanges with Matthew, who was very helpful in his attempts to peg the problem down.
Spoiler
First exchange
Spoiler
Matthew Craig, on 03 June 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:
I have some time to investigate this issue, could you please describe for me your settings and how you see this issue (I've tried various DX11 setups with no luck) would appreciate your input to help reproduce it as your seeing it.
Lordred, on 03 June 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:
Matthew Craig, on 03 June 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:
I have some time to investigate this issue, could you please describe for me your settings and how you see this issue (I've tried various DX11 setups with no luck) would appreciate your input to help reproduce it as your seeing it.
I went ahead and restored my drivers to their orginial configuration as shipped by Nvidia to restore the game to its orginial look.
I removed all settings from my user.cfg aside from FoV (74) and Cockpitglass.
First batch is with Ingame AA set off (No AA), and Motion Blur set to off.
I have attached four images for these settings, one to display the settings used, and three to display the motion blur that is noticeable (Some have called it ghosting, but as far as I am aware if it part of the Cry Engines Edge AA)
Thank you for the detailed response (love the work in the screenshot thread by the way). Just curious are you able to see this in testing grounds?
Also if your interested I can highly recommend Nvidia' latest drivers I've been testing them out and there is a noticeable performance increase for MWO in the latest drivers using DX11 if you're looking for more frame rate.
I'll keep you posted on what I find with this ghosting issue.
Thanks again
Matthew Craig, on 04 June 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:
I know you said they are at default settings but would you mind attaching a screenshot of your Nvidia driver settings just so I can ensure I'm definitely matching what you have, thanks.
Lordred, on 04 June 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:
I performed the tests in the testing ground and found them 100% repeatable.
For starters the requested NVCP/NVI
(Nvidia Control Panel/Nvidia Inspector)
Spoiler
Method
NoAA
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TXAA
Spoiler
I will be looking into the driver update next.
Third exchange
Spoiler
Matthew Craig, on 05 June 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:
Great thanks Lordred
I'm looking through the code and its certainly an odd one the object motion blur shouldn't kick in unless r_MotionBlur is set to 2 or higher.
As you can reproduce this if you have time would you mind playing with r_MotionBlurMaxViewDist particularly curious if 0 resolves the issue (this parameter is supposed to be the maximum distance to display object blur for e.g. Mechs within 200 meters should be =200 anything beyond that distance shouldn't blur).
Also does r_MotionBlurShutterSpeed have any impact on how separated the 'trails' appear?
Also what FPS (F9) do you see when you see this blur, just curious if its related to slow frame rate or not, though I gather you have a high end machine?
Small update, I belive that the ghosting that is being noticed is infact not related to motion blur at all (You may blaim my calling it blur on lack of knowledge)
It would appear to be completely the fault of Post AA. (Possibly related to the Cryengines use of Temporal AA)
Launching into a match, Training Grounds or a normal match the game (atleast on my end) apparently defaults into PostAA, regardless of NoAA/PostAA selection in the menu. While in match re-applying the selection of NoAA completely removed all image ghosting. Upon exiting of the match, re-entry will once again enable PostAA (though not selected) and results in image ghosting in the following match. Applying the NoAA setting mid match will remove the ghosting effect once more.
Simply using MSAA, or TXAA also removes image ghosting
I hope you can repeat this, I will re-install the game if you are unable to duplicate the results.
User.cfg was empty for these tests.
Drivers are on default settings.
Performing aditional tests, I've spent the last week becoming more familiar with the Cryengine to better work with you on this.
I am fairly certian this is a PostAA issue croping up with PostAA defaulting on, even when selected to be off.
Lordred, on 06 June 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:
Small amendment: I do not appear to beable to replicate the ability to remove ghost imageing while in public matches by toggeling from PostAA to NoAA within the match. The ghosts continue.
Spoiler
Fourth exchange
Spoiler
Matthew Craig, on 09 June 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:
Thanks for the feedback Lordred much appreciated.
Matthew Craig, on 03 July 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:
Lordred
Can you try setting depth of field to 0 or 1 r_DepthOfField=0/1 and see if it still occurs for you.
It seems to be an issue with the setting r_DepthOfField=2
Much Appreciated
Lordred, on 03 July 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:
That is an easy one Matthew. It still presists with the depth of field set to 0. The issue appears to purely the inability to disable postAA in live matches. Right now inless a higher AA is selected (TXAA or MSAA) the client currently ignores the NoAA setting and will use PostAA
I belive there is a problem with the live build which prevents the disabling of postAA. I have been playing with the systemoverride as well as creating an autoexec to try to disable the engines edgeaa, postaa, and fsaa with mixed results.
For now i have been using the supported MSAA and TXAA settings to remove the image ghosting, others who follow the screenshot thread report similar findings.
If my response is somewhat scatered i appologize, I am responding via cellphone while taking a break at work.
Lordred, on 03 July 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:
Please take a look at the folowing two posts for my explanations in the screenshot thread if you are willing
I've tracked that down in the PostAA shader to a minor imprecision in the texture offsetting that is being used; however, I now suspect this is a separate bug for DX11.
I have not been able to reproduce the other type of artifacting you show (yet)
If you compare the images you can see the quality of the artifacting is different, and I suspect this is the one that is bugging most players and causing this type of ghosting that you linked earlier.
Can you please tell me exactly how you reproduced that testdropNoAA-1.jpg artifacting that is the one I now need to reproduce and resolve but I can currently only get the other type. I suspect I know how it is happening having been looking through the PostAA code but I need a repro case to ensure it is genuinely resolved.
Thanks for your help with this its much appreciated.
Lordred, on 04 July 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:
Here you go Matthew, with luck you will notice it in this video, sadly Youtube compressed it more then I would have liked (target was 11kbps, looks like they dropped it to 5k~ish)
My user.cfg was cleared and the game settings reset
I set the game to Very High and toggled the AA to "NoAA" then I restarted the game. From the mechbay menu I started recording, went into the settings to show that NoAA is selected and started the Training Ground for you. I ran out to the Awesome (easiest mech to circle due to its location) and if you pause the video on youtube every time I make a pass on the Awesome, you will see the "ghost" outline of the Awesome (this applies for all mechs, cockpit, and pilot if they are caught in motion)
I then moved in close to show that while set to off, PostAA was infact enabled. So while in the training grounds I toggled the settings from NoAA to PostAA, and then back. Now render clearly shows no antiailaising is happening, and I proceed to circle the mech again. This time whenever you pause the video while I am running by the mech, there is no ghost image (the client having accepted the NoAA command) I then powered down, and up.
I once again toggled the client back to PostAA, powered down (if you watch the hand and the buttons in the cockpit, you will notice that they all present image ghosting) powered up and circled the Awesome once again, having the same image ghosting issue that the game shows when set to NoAA during a client restart. This bypass will only work for me in the Training ground, it will not disable PostAA in a live match.
(saddly the image ghosts on the awesome are much easier to see on the higher bitrate version, I will take a live game anyways to show you.)
This bug is present on both a Windows 7 and 8.1 install. Now I am not complaining about PostAA having the issue with the ghost images, there is nothing you guys can do about that, that is Cryengins implementation of Temporal AA. However if we could get the game to actually toggle to NoAA when set (and stay on NoAA) then I imagine anyone else experiencing this problem will no longer have it. The image ghosting effect can be quite distracting in a live match some times.
The other option is for people to use MSAA if they wish to avoid it, the problem being the amount of hardware 'omph' required. I hope I am mistaken, but I believe I am in the upper end on the hardware spectrum for players, I can (and do) run MSAA full time, or TXAA/MSAA2x
Lordred, on 07 July 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:
HD is still processing (may be done by the time you read this), however this should display what I really wanted you to see.
In the beginning of the match, watching the mechs on the team I was on walk by shows the problem very well, it becomes much harder to catch in the middle of combat, but is still viewable.
The image ghosting is most prevalent at the beginning, and that is all you really need to see. However, if you like watching Commandos tear up mechs over three times its size, by all means, watch the whole thing.
Edit: I took the liberty to have as much diagnostic info available for you as possible, so you will see GPU utilization, power utilization, temp, Vram usage, clock speeds, Dram Usage, and CPU utilization.
Final response
Spoiler
Matthew Craig, on 15 July 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:
Hi Lordred
Sadly no, really at a loss to see what is different between our setups. I'm handing all the information off to our QA team for now to see if they can find a suitable repro case. Only real difference I see between our setups is I'm using a 780 and you're using a 680 GPU
Sucks as I was really hoping to get this fixed last week but guess its going to take a bit longer to track down a debuggable repro case.
Not entirely sure why it's so hard to reproduce. Out of 10 players I've asked, only one didn't have it due to running MXAA. Asked him to turn it off and bam, ghosting. That's 10 out of 10. Nvidia and AMD cards. Pentiums and AMD processors. Laptops and desktops. So long as the monitor is 60 hertz we can see it.
The issue is caused by Cryengines Temporal AA, which uses offset frames to create an AA effect. It is very low budget and has next to no system cost, however it can cause image ghosting (Halo effect).
The way to get around it is to use a non Temporal AA, which would give you MSAA, TXAA, or to disable PostAA. At this resolution, I want to disable PostAA, however the game is not accepting that command. Yes, I can set it to No AA, but the game does not take the command, it keeps PostAA on.
I went over this in depth with Matthew Craig, however he claims he could not replicate what I, and a great deal of others see.
Yes, I can simply use MSAA, or TXAA to bypass it. However at this resolution, I lack the firepower to do so. 4K is still a young res, and it will take a while for the industry to catch up.
Transcript from my exchanges with Matthew, who was very helpful in his attempts to peg the problem down.
Spoiler
First exchange
Spoiler
Second exchange
Spoiler
Third exchange
Spoiler
Fourth exchange
Spoiler
Fifth exchange
Spoiler
Final response
Spoiler
So what you're telling me is...... it's deeply rooted within the cryengine? Great.
One of the recent pics (Dire wolf, plan dull colour, in caustic. Unknown clan mech behind taking hits and a destroyed mech further back, possibly a timber wolf) has some short lines along the side of the picture. I noticed it only after i set it as my wallpaper.
This is the texture setup in our game for the mechs.
The DIF texture file gives us the texture, paint quality, and marking on the mech.
The RGB texture file determins the camo pattern and line quality.
The SPC texture file determins the meterial 'look', how new, or old, blah blah.
Red is bad, Orange is passable, Yellow is good, Green is where we want to be.
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Lordred, on 27 July 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:
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