1386 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

http://mwomercs.com/...st__p__2315318:

Quote

Machine Guns
MGs are getting their damage doubled to 0.08/shell.
MG range is going to be 120m and they will fall off to 0 damage at 240m.
MG Spread will remain unchanged for the moment.

Way too little, on all counts.

Basically what they're doing is giving us the 0.4 DPS MG we theoretically had before, but now in practice (since spread + continuous fire effectively removes 50% of the DPS).

You know, the one we did math on showing it did way too little damage? Yeah, that one.

And the range buff doesn't even begin to make up for the retention of spread, or the way-too-small damage buff.

You can send that "buff" back to where it came from, because it'll do zip-all to make MGs viable.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 02 May 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...st__p__2315318:

Way too little, on all counts.

Basically what they're doing is giving us the 0.4 DPS MG we theoretically had before, but now in practice (since spread + continuous fire effectively removes 50% of the DPS).

You know, the one we did math on showing it did way too little damage? Yeah, that one.

And the range buff doesn't even begin to make up for the retention of spread, or the way-too-small damage buff.

You can send that "buff" back to where it came from, because it'll do zip-all to make MGs viable.

so, supposedly after May 21 my 6 MG Spider (which still doesn't exist) will only take 24 seconds of sustained fire on the rear of an AFK Atlas to do goody damage?

YAY!


This guy approves!!!!!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 May 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[FrostCollar]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

so, supposedly after May 21 my 6 MG Spider (which still doesn't exist) will only take 24 seconds of sustained fire on the rear of an AFK Atlas to do goody damage?

Sounds devestating to me. But not actually viable versus something like a Jenner. A Jenner with streaks and that can ignore ECM, mind you.

[Deathlike]

I hate to say this, but the changes to ECM/BAP will make it StreakWarrior Online (well, maybe StreakPPCWarrior Online).

So, even if the Spiders get their buff to MGs, they would be crushed by the Commandos that used to be squishy and useless (outside of the 2D).

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 02 May 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

I hate to say this, but the changes to ECM/BAP will make it StreakWarrior Online (well, maybe StreakPPCWarrior Online).

So, even if the Spiders get their buff to MGs, they would be crushed by the Commandos that used to be squishy and useless (outside of the 2D).

Depends. If they keep SSRM damage at the current level and such, not that big a deal.

[FrostCollar]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Depends. If they keep SSRM damage at the current level and such, not that big a deal.

Yeah - BAP, ECM, NARC, LB-X 10, MGs. All are irrelevant in the baleful blue eyes of the Particle Projection Cannon.

[Bishop Steiner]

FrostCollar, on 02 May 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Yeah - BAP, ECM, NARC, LB-X 10, MGs. All are irrelevant in the baleful blue eyes of the Particle Projection Cannon.

Not true. All irrelevant in the baleful eye of broken heat/hard point system. You can't tell me a mech like a Stock Catapult K2 with 2 PPC/ER PPC is some Uber-Mech that is unstoppable The issue is a hardpoint system allowing Gauss where Machine Guns go and PPCs where small lasers lie. Add in a Heat System that doesn't give any real penalties to overheating (back in closed beta when you could cook off your own ammo, or even have the reactor overload (no stackpole explosion, just the core doing a dump to prevent containment issues) you would see HexStalkers go away FAST.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Depends. If they keep SSRM damage at the current level and such, not that big a deal.

It is unlikely to stay the same when it is all deployed.. but I don't expect Streaks to stay exactly the same... yet I wouldn't be shocked if they were unbalanced further.

[FrostCollar]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Not true. All irrelevant in the baleful eye of broken heat/hard point system. You can't tell me a mech like a Stock Catapult K2 with 2 PPC/ER PPC is some Uber-Mech that is unstoppable The issue is a hardpoint system allowing Gauss where Machine Guns go and PPCs where small lasers lie. Add in a Heat System that doesn't give any real penalties to overheating (back in closed beta when you could cook off your own ammo, or even have the reactor overload (no stackpole explosion, just the core doing a dump to prevent containment issues) you would see HexStalkers go away FAST.

Well, I'm simplifying of course. My main point is that the game currently has some fundamental balance problems that are not addressed by this patch - something we seem to agree on.

[Sephlock]

Just give it a flat increase to damage when it is hitting an unarmored area. Ditto for LBX.

[One Medic Army]

I'd just like to add an anecdote here.
Earlier tonight I ran into a spider K with 2 MGs and a medium laser.
I was in a cicada 3M with an ERPPC and 3 small lasers.

I shot said spider with my 3 small lasers while it shot me with the MGs primarily.
Guess who came out of the exchange with almost full armor, despite having lower weapon mobility and overall maneuverability, while the other was a smoking wreck.

Edited by One Medic Army, 03 May 2013 - 01:28 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

It's a step in the right direction.

I doubt it will be enough.

I hope any follow-up steps will be much easier than this one... But I wouldn't be surprised of the opposite.

[Demos]

Too little, hopefully not too late...

I had a "duel" with a spider (4MGs) a few days ago, sitting in an overheated Jenner. I heard the plink-plonk of MG bullets spraying my mech and was afraid. Since I shutted down after my next laser salvo again...
Then I looked at the armor and didn't knew if I should laugh or beweep the spider pilot with his pitiyful MGs...

Like LRM speed or LBX spread, this step is not far-reaching enough.
Instead of straddling the target, the shells falling a mile too short and PGI adjust the aim by 50m.

[Belorion]

Demos, on 03 May 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

Too little, hopefully not too late...

<snip>

Like LRM speed or LBX spread, this step is not far-reaching enough.
Instead of straddling the target, the shells falling a mile too short and PGI adjust the aim by 50m.

I think you may be underestimating what MG's will be able to do after the buff for the amount of tonnage it takes up.

4 MG's will have a dps roughly equal to a ppc with a fraction of the weight.

Edited by Belorion, 03 May 2013 - 04:37 AM.

[Demos]

And these 4 MGs have less than a quarter of the range, a pitiful flight speed and instead of pinpoint damage a large spread.

Let's assume you have 4 MGs and half of the bullets hit, while shooting at a shut down mech.
Even with meager 10 point rear armor you'd need six to seven seconds to remove the rear armor. And this implies that you do not move significantly as your weapns must aim nonstop on target to deliver this damage.

A PPC (or laser or ballistic) will deliver front-end damage and a few seconds later - while evading- another devastating salvo.

DPS is only an indicator for usefulness, not the deus-ex-machina.

[HammerSwarm]

In my spreadsheet wars the machine gun is only buffed to 0.8 DPS against armor and 2.65 against internals. It's time to abandon this critical hit nonsense PGI. The video above shows clearly how terrible the new machine gun numbers are.

The Bottom Line: Machine guns just aren't fun to use, they're actually pretty terrible.

You can say that we're the problem, that we're not getting your vision for the weapon, that if we just did it your way, etc. We're not the problem. We're the consumer. We're not wrong about what we find fun to use and what we find to be broken.

Fact: They're working as intended. Opinion: You intend them not to be fun.

[Deathlike]

MGs are hitscan weapons like lasers. Imagine if the Small Laser had the properties of an MG. In order for it to stay effective, the laser "stream" would have to stay on its target practically INDEFINITELY to do the DPS to be optimal. Think of MW3's pulse lasers, except they do VERY LITTLE damage for the duration of the firing. That is the current state of the MG. Even if the infamous 6 PPC Stalker took a nice long overheating nap, the 4/6 MG wielding mech would still not make a significant dent to the backside of the Stalker by design. That's how INEFFECTIVE that weapon happens to be.

[Lord of All]

This is my main concern with allowing MG's to strip armor quicker.

Quote

- The Machine Gun has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the Machine Gun crits, it will deal 12.5x the amount of normal damage per bullet to an internal item.
- The Machine Gun crit damage is 12.5 x 0.04 = 0.5 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 1.5.
- Due to the rate of fire, the Machine Gun is now a heavy crit seeker and will be VERY effective vs. items on non-armoured locations.]

IF you guys want it to strip armor then It needs a tone down on the crit seeking or everyone will have to chase lights all day until all the MG's are gone.

Edited by Lord of All, 03 May 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

I appreciate that PGI is trying to give each weapon a distinct niche and flavor.

But sometimes, they get too cute for their own good. 4 crit seeking machines guns of Death only are remotely useful IF THEY CAN GET TO THE SQUISHY INSIDES IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!

In the current PUG Meta, you cannot rely on a Big Brother Teammate to strip the armor to allow you to conveniently steal the Kill with crits at the last second. And since those comprise a goodly bit of armament of many Lights and the Cicada they need to be useful when defending oneself against OTHER lights. The "role" of Lights should not be to hide behind the Atlas until the rest of the team has stripped the opponent of armor for it's MGs to magically go to work!

No, they should be inferior to Streaks and Medium Lasers, but their overall effectiveness should be SIMILAR to that of a Small Laser. And IDK how long you can maintain the stream of fire, since you can't likely KEEP it focused on any one area of a moving mech!

Lord of All, on 03 May 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

This is my main concern with allowing MG's to strip armor quicker.



IF you guys want it to strip armor then It needs a tone down one the crit seeking or everyone will have to chase lights all day until all the MG's are gone.

DUDE.


Most of us have been saying DITCH the Crit Seeking entirely. We don't want or need mystic post armor death lasers. We just need them to be a weapon that can cause a reasonable amount of damage, considering weight and ammo.

[Lord of All]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

I appreciate that PGI is trying to give each weapon a distinct niche and flavor.

But sometimes, they get too cute for their own good. 4 crit seeking machines guns of Death only are remotely useful IF THEY CAN GET TO THE SQUISHY INSIDES IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!...

MG's are not MAIN weapons! If you want them to "Get to the Squishy inside" then they should not tear that inside up 12 TIMES faster than everything else.

Quote

Most of us have been saying DITCH the Crit Seeking entirely. We don't want or need mystic post armor death lasers. We just need them to be a weapon that can cause a reasonable amount of damage, considering weight and ammo.

I would have no issue with changing the role but I see nothing about toning down the CRIT Seeking, only Buffing damage because most of the people advocating a damage Buff have not looked past the end of their nose.