19 replies to this topic

[FrostCollar]

From what I've read on these forums it seems clear that there's support for an increase in BAP's capabilities. Right now what it does is rather underwhelming, to put it lightly, compared to ECM. Just so we are all on the same page, here is all that BAP does:

Quote

BEAGLE ACTIVE PROBE (BAP)
Increases targeting range by 25%
Increases the speed at which more information about the target is displayed by 25%
It allows detection of shut down mechs when within 120m.
Stacks with sensor range modules.

So, instead of proposing one idea about BAP myself, I decided instead to aggregate many separate ideas about BAP and put them all in one poll so we can see what proposals are most popular and hopefully what the devs should focus on.

Remember, select any and all options you think could be reasonable. Also, there is no "other" option for a reason. If you have a different suggestion, put it in the thread and I will add it to the poll. The idea is to have data on the popularity of every suggestion.

Edited by FrostCollar, 10 April 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Dimitry Matveyev]

I think BAP should be able to switch ON/OFF. As an active probe it shoud work like an active radar - sending signals to receiv info.
when ON -
Increases targeting range by 25%
Increases the speed at which more information about the target is displayed by 25%
It allows detection of shut down mechs when within 120m
+ should be able to reveal enemy units under ECM (you and friendly units can see tham on map, but not nullify it's effects on targeting for friendly units, like ECM in alt mode). Why? ECM sending signals to fool standart passive radar. Active probe should be able to track where this signals are coming from.
in cons, when BAP is ON, you also should be revealed to enemy (your radar is sending signals, remember?) on greater distance. Don't want to reveal your position? Turn BAP OFF.

Should work fine.

P.S. I think it would be good to be able to turn ECM OFF (for ECM user), if you don't want to reveal your position for BAP user on bigger distances.

[FrostCollar]

Dimitry Matveyev, on 10 April 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

I think BAP should be able to switch ON/OFF. As an active probe it shoud work like an active radar - sending signals to receiv info.

I've added this option to the poll.

[Corvus Antaka]

BAP should make ECM mechs and mechs in the bubble detectable & lockable at around 500 meters.

[ryoma]

I'd like to see BAP be something people consider. Right now everyone would rather have another HS or ton of ammo.

[AC]

In Battletech BAP was used to locate mechs that were not in LOS. I feel this NEEDS to be added to BAP. ECM should counter this though, but ECM should never counter LOS sensors. It never did that in battletech.

[FrostCollar]

I've added another option.

[Deathlike]

If I knew what I'd wanted, I'd argue for it. Lemme stew about this idea for a bit.

[Eddrick]

I'm content with Beagle Active Probe as is. But, I wouldn't complain about it getting more benifits. My favorite part that it can do right now: allowing locks beyond 1000m (About 1200m max) when combined with Sensor Range Module.

[FrostCollar]

Eddrick, on 10 April 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I'm content with Beagle Active Probe as is. But, I wouldn't complain about it getting more benifits. My favorite part that it can do right now: allowing locks beyond 1000m (About 1200m max) when combined with Sensor Range Module.

Still, that really doesn't stack up against ECM. Locks beyond 1000m are only useful in the largest maps and lock-ons on shut down enemies at close range is only useful in a few cases, yet ECM is useful all the time at all ranges. BAP needs some changes to compare to that.

[Deathlike]

The only thing that BAP should do is really increase ECM detection range... and allow LRMs to lock onto a target @ 500m or so. It's the original range of TAG, and probably should be used as such @ that range.

Streaks should have an increased lockon range, assuming that the ECM cloak is the same, where the 180m lockout range is reduced to between 120 and 135m.

[FrostCollar]

Deathlike, on 10 April 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

The only thing that BAP should do is really increase ECM detection range... and allow LRMs to lock onto a target @ 500m or so. It's the original range of TAG, and probably should be used as such @ that range.

Streaks should have an increased lockon range, assuming that the ECM cloak is the same, where the 180m lockout range is reduced to between 120 and 135m.

Sounds like "Reduce the effects of enemy ECM to a greater degree than it does now" to me.

[FrostCollar]

Keep on voting. So far there are no clear standout results, save that multi-lockon and a new vision mode are both unpopular suggestions. Again, if you have a suggestion not on the list, go ahead and post it so I can add it.

[Wreknar Temper]

I'm still of the mind that BAP should have the ECM counter mode instead of ECM having it. If that's not meant to be though the 500m lock-on would be fine provided the sensor range module extends that to 750m.

[HammerSwarm]

Wreknar Temper, on 12 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

I'm still of the mind that BAP should have the ECM counter mode instead of ECM having it. If that's not meant to be though the 500m lock-on would be fine provided the sensor range module extends that to 750m.

What if they both had it, and the BAP did what it does now?

So it would have a passive range mode, that decreased missle lock time, decrease target info time, and increased range. Then it transformed into an active counter to ECM and those other buffs went away.

So ECM = Cloaking/ECM Counter
and BAP = Enhanced Sensors/ECM Counter

It's a win/win for both sides, and for the community

Edited by HammerSwarm, 12 April 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Victor Morson]

I'd love if BAP lit you up like a Christmas tree on radar if you're within 1500 of the enemy or so, but also allowed you to break ECM at close range and could detect enemies without LOS. Yeah it's interaction with ECM isn't canon but the fact it doesn't pick up targets through walls (inside of 270m) isn't canon either.

Namely I miss the whole "Passive/Active" radar concern of past games. While the radar system is entirely different in MW:O, some changes to BAP would bring the spirit of those radar-scanning games back.

That said, BAP is not worthless if LRMs are working (currently they are not), because those fast locks - esp. if you need to get a shot off RIGHT after breaking someone's ECM - are vital.

EDIT: To Clarify what I mean about BAP countering ECM is I mean at close range. If you want to fire LRMs at a guy 800m away, and an ECM gets under 200m, the BAP should override in that instance only. It'd instantly make it a highly useful item without totally ruining ECM.

It'd be OK with it allowing Streaks to be used in an ECM field too. If Streaks are so OP they can't be allowed without surefire ECM jamming they need to be addressed separately. The BAP is a considerable investment for a light 'mech to make, and I think that's balance enough.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 April 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Personally, I think that Active Probes (Beagle, and its unnamed Clan-built counterpart) should be able to do all of the things it can do in BT:

• Detect any hidden 'Mech (or Combat Vehicle, or Battle Armor) - provided said unit was within 120 meters [4 hexes], would have had LOS while within range (that is, not behind a building or hill, or not more than 90 [3 hexes] meters of light woods or 60 meters [2 hexes] of heavy (or mixed) woods between the probe and its target), and was not underwater (Total Warfare, pgs. 100 and 129 and 303)
  
• Alert the user to the presence of ECM jamming (Total Warfare, pg. 134)
  
• Be rendered useless in a region characterized by natural "electromagnetic interference", distinct from ECM (Tactical Operations, pg. 55)
  
• Aid in target acquisition and aiming against an opponent in the probe's range [to the point of reducing the to-hit requirements] (Tactical Operations, pg. 99)
  
• Gather [additional] information about a target's status and condition (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 219)
  
• Potentially reveal the presence of minefields (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 210)
  
• Increase the likelihood of distinguishing a Ghost Target from an actual target, and vice versa (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 102)
  
• Expand overall detection range to 1080 meters [36 hexes] under optimal conditions (Tactical Operations, pg. 222)
  
• Provide a small bonus against Guardian ECM sensor jamming [Guardian gets only a +4 bonus against Beagle, in contrast to Guardian's +5 bonus vs standard 'Mech sensors - representing an ~83% chance of being jammed for Beagle, versus a ~92% chance of being jammed for unaugmented standard sensors] (Tactical Operations, pg. 223)
  
• Monitor a distant area (up to 2 kilometers [67 hexes] away) through up to 2 Remote Sensors (Tactical Operations, pgs. 224 and 375)
  
• Fails completely (by explicit rule) to detect opponents mounting a Null Signature System [permanently LosTech] (Tactical Operations, pg. 336)
  
• Must be within 30 meters [the adjacent hex] to detect a vehicle using a stealth chute (Tactical Operations, pg. 349)
  
• Fails completely (by explicit rule) to detect opponents mounting a Void Signature System [available in 3070] (Tactical Operations, pg. 349)
  
• Can be homed in on by Anti-Radiation Missiles [available to Clans in 3057, available to IS in 3066] (Tactical Operations, pg. 368)

More specifically (and in terms of MWO implementation, and in addition to the current in-game effects):

• Detects any unit within 120 meters that is not obscured by terrain or buildings (including shut-down units; ignore forest criteria)
  
• Allows 360-degree scanning within the 120-meter radius (still limited to LOS/FOV detection beyond the 120-meter radius)
  
• Alerts the user when any 'Mech equipped with an ECM suite (Guardian, and its unnamed Clan-built counterpart) enters its 120-meter radius
  
• Changes the "paper doll" of the target to a HTAL bar display (or allows for the option) and shows remaining ammo for the target's weapons
  
• Doesn't work in EMI-heavy regions (a map-specific characteristic)
  
• Reveal the presence and location of minefields (requires the implementation of mines, as a map-specific characteristic and/or a player-deployable weapon)
  
• Can see through the ghost targets generated by ECM suites (requires the implementation of a ghost target mode for ECM suites)
  
• Can be homed-in on by Listen-Kill Missiles (the timeline-available predecessor to ARAD missiles; requires implementation of LKMs as an alternate LRM/SRM munition)
  
• Has a 20% chance of seeing through an ECM jamming field for 10 seconds when within 120 meters of the ECM suite generating the field (calculated/determined at 10-second intervals; calculated/determined separately for each independent ECM suite if there are multiple ECM suites within the 120-meter radius)
  
• Provides a very small (~5%) bonus to convergence speed for direct-fire weapons and spread for missile weapons

Thoughts?

[MasterBLB]

I've already mentioned about BAP here.In short is should:

• Extend sensor range to 1000m
  
• Decrease enemy info acquisiton time by 50% for the BAP user.Teammates could be given some bonus too (25% for example?),in that case the BAP carrier should be rewarded by CBills
  
• Add 1s to target decay when lost line of sight
  
• Speed up missile lock by 15% for BAP user.Eventually it could give 7% bonus for teammates too,in that case BAP user should be given some CBills for that.Anyway,I'm not sure if that wouldn't be too much
  
• Ability to detect and target powered down mechs within 120m radius is fine
  
• Ability to show somehow if being jammed by ECM

[Fallenbourne]

I agree with what MasterBLB wrote and mine is going to sound similar, but with a few changes.

Pretty much what MasterBLB has minus the teammate bonuses. Every mech can mount BAP, whereas every mech cannot mount ECM.

Add in a Ping function. Pretty much you activate the BAP and it sends out radar pings for 2-3 seconds. What this does is reveal every mech, friend or foe, on your radar. Even ones covered by ECM. Only the pilot that pinged sees the revealed mechs. This should give you enough time to lock-on and send a salvo of missles off. Maybe not enough time to get target info but enough to send a salvo off.

Of course to prevent this from being to OP, you will also be immediately revealed to all radars for the same time period. Also a cooldown on the ping of 10-15 seconds activated after the 2-3 second sweep. So when in close against that Raven you can ping and use your streaks once every 13 seconds.

Side note: All the numbers I used are guesses at the best. Obviously PGI would have to test them and find the correct balance between everything.

[FrostCollar]

Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

More specifically (and in terms of MWO implementation, and in addition to the current in-game effects):

• Detects any unit within 120 meters that is not obscured by terrain or buildings (including shut-down units; ignore forest criteria)
  
• Allows 360-degree scanning within the 120-meter radius (still limited to LOS/FOV detection beyond the 120-meter radius)

I like the sound of these.

Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

• Alerts the user when any 'Mech equipped with an ECM suite (Guardian, and its unnamed Clan-built counterpart) enters its 120-meter radius

No. For this to be useful, you'd have to remove the normal jamming indicator for normal mechs, and that would make ECM quite a bit more powerful.

Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

• Changes the "paper doll" of the target to a HTAL bar display (or allows for the option) and shows remaining ammo for the target's weapons

Yeah, sure.

Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

• Doesn't work in EMI-heavy regions (a map-specific characteristic)
  
• Reveal the presence and location of minefields (requires the implementation of mines, as a map-specific characteristic and/or a player-deployable weapon)
  
• Can see through the ghost targets generated by ECM suites (requires the implementation of a ghost target mode for ECM suites)
  
• Can be homed-in on by Listen-Kill Missiles (the timeline-available predecessor to ARAD missiles; requires implementation of LKMs as an alternate LRM/SRM munition)

All this requires content that has yet to be added.

Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

• Has a 20% chance of seeing through an ECM jamming field for 10 seconds when within 120 meters of the ECM suite generating the field (calculated/determined at 10-second intervals; calculated/determined separately for each independent ECM suite if there are multiple ECM suites within the 120-meter radius)

I really don't like adding some odd probabalistic element ere. If you want to partially counter ECM, have it partially counter ECM. No need to add more chance.

Strum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

• Provides a very small (~5%) bonus to convergence speed for direct-fire weapons and spread for missile weapons

Maybe, I suppose. This is pretty minor.