70 replies to this topic

[Ardney]

3rdworld said:

Give me a reason why I can't use large jumpjets on small mechs

*Reasons are given*

3rdworld said:

BAWWWWWWWWWW

Edited by Ardney, 11 April 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[KitK]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 April 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Because that's the way it works. If you want to jump further, you need to add more jump jets of the type your mech supports. They could theoretically change it so you could use bigger jump jets - but then they'd would change it so that you can still only carry the same max weight worth of jump jets and reach the same max height and max speed. Because that's what the of jump jet count limitation is about - limit your ability to jump to whatever the devs seemed reasonable.

(I believe they are already indirectly breaking lore here, since in lore, the max jump distance is also limited by your engine size. I believe you cannot jump further than your walk speed would allow effectively. So if yo'd equip a lower-rated engine on your mech, your limit would be lower, and if you equip a higher-rated engine, your limit would be higher.)

This is exactly right.


@OP the reason is that Battlemechs are built around a set of battletech rules. These rules dictate that there are different sized (weight actually) jump jets for different mech classes. It is also true that they have not implemented jump jets 100% to those rules. But they have kept the spirit of those rules by having different jump jets for different classes of mech.

Calling it arbitrary is a bit hyerbolic and certainly miss-aimed. If it is arbitrary than FASA did it 20 years ago, not PGI last month.

Edited by KitK, 11 April 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Asmosis]

all classes of JJ's provide the same amount of boost. if you somehow juryrigged an assult JJ to a light mech (idk like a rocket backpack?) it'd still just give you the same boost as your 0.5T light class one.

[Aethon]

Sedit, on 11 April 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Why can I put PPC, LRM20 or ac/20 on light mechs but I cannot put a class I jump jet, it restricts me to class V. I should be able to jump higher if i want to add the extra weight.

The best explanation I can offer, based on the fluff I know about jumpjets, is this:

Your jump jets only contain a limited amount of reaction mass when fully-charged; if you release it through larger nozzles than is necessary (like fitting assault jj's on a light), you will lose your reaction mass pretty much instantly, while achieving a lower altitude because the thrust could not be maintained for more than a fraction of a second.

On the other hand, if you use light mech jj's on an assault, it would be like having a few cans of compressed air...the ones you use to clean your PC's innards...strapped to the back of the mech. They could burn all day long on the reaction mass an assault mech can carry, but would not have the flow rates necessary to generate the kind of thrust you would need to lift that assault mech.

I hope this makes sense...if not, I blame the current excess of blood in my caffeine system.

Edited by Aethon, 11 April 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[TungstenWall]

I think Jump Jets use your power-plant's exhaust to push the mech in an upward direction. Because there is not infinite pressure in the plants, we have short fly times and our speed drops the longer we are in the air.

Larger Jumpjets require more pressure to lift more weight.

[SixstringSamurai]

TungstenWall, on 11 April 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

I think Jump Jets use your power-plant's exhaust to push the mech in an upward direction. Because there is not infinite pressure in the plants, we have short fly times and our speed drops the longer we are in the air.

Larger Jumpjets require more pressure to lift more weight.

But then that just loops around to the original question because I can fit a 300 rating engine in a Jenner.

[Juree Riggd]

Also, larger jump jets require more power or fuel in order to make this happen. A class 5 uses far less fuel per meter than a class 1. A light mech simply has no way to store the same amount of fuel a larger mech would have.

I thought there were mechs capable of jumping 150+ meters though?

[Mechteric]

In Battletech (ze Boardgame) each 1 jump jet added to a mech was 1 hex of max distance capable of jumping. To balance heavier mechs they decided to keep the 1 jump jet per 1 hex at the cost of heavier jump jets otherwise they'd all put jump jets on because they'd weigh nearly nothing. That is all. It was to balance heavier mechs to make them spend more weight, and because it kinda made sense because they need heavier jump jets to go the same distance per 1 jump jet as a lighter mech. Now why didn't they increase the crit size as well? I guess they figured heavier mechs already were hurting for crit space later on so why give them even more reason not to load them on. Plus they want to keep jets mostly in the legs and since legs only have 2 crits open you'd have a problem when trying to make heavier jets that would theoretically need more than 2 crits.

TLDR: Its for balance.

[SixstringSamurai]

Juree Riggd, on 11 April 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Also, larger jump jets require more power or fuel in order to make this happen. A class 5 uses far less fuel per meter than a class 1. A light mech simply has no way to store the same amount of fuel a larger mech would have.

I thought there were mechs capable of jumping 150+ meters though?

Which sounds like a lot but 120m is only 4 Hexes in BT. They kind of carried that through to MWO with the jump limitations they have now. Mechs like the Spider and the Panther ( I think) have pretty big jump distances of 210 or 270m

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 11 April 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[Juree Riggd]

Oh okay, I don't have much experience with JJs, the only one being a raven 4x, and i think it gets 30ish meters on full JJs.

[TungstenWall]

SixStringSamurai, on 11 April 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

But then that just loops around to the original question because I can fit a 300 rating engine in a Jenner.

Good point. *shrug* no idea then.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

I got 99 problems but this ain’t one

[3rdworld]

Aethon, on 11 April 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

The best explanation I can offer, based on the fluff I know about jumpjets, is this:

Your jump jets only contain a limited amount of reaction mass when fully-charged; if you release it through larger nozzles than is necessary (like fitting assault jj's on a light), you will lose your reaction mass pretty much instantly, while achieving a lower altitude because the thrust could not be maintained for more than a fraction of a second.

On the other hand, if you use light mech jj's on an assault, it would be like having a few cans of compressed air...the ones you use to clean your PC's innards...strapped to the back of the mech. They could burn all day long on the reaction mass an assault mech can carry, but would not have the flow rates necessary to generate the kind of thrust you would need to lift that assault mech.

I hope this makes sense...if not, I blame the current excess of blood in my caffeine system.

JJs are normalized for flight time and distance. If the reaction mass of a class 1 is enough to boost a 90 ton mech for 3 secs, how would that be smaller on a lighter mech? If anything the flight time using class 1 would be much longer on a smaller mech not shorter or would carry it much further. Unless you are saying it is somehow tied to engine size which again makes no sense as using a smaller engine on a mech does not change JJ distance.

Edited by 3rdworld, 11 April 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[p00k]

[3rdworld]

KitK, on 11 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Calling it arbitrary is a bit hyerbolic and certainly miss-aimed. If it is arbitrary than FASA did it 20 years ago, not PGI last month.

Never blamed it on PGI. I never even implied that. I even stated that the entire system is just another idiotic holdover from an outdated CBT rule set. Along with Atlas's having the same amount of internal space as a spider....

[Tickdoff Tank]

mwhighlander, on 11 April 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

The class of jump jets are merely the size for use on bigger mechs.

Depending on the weight of the mech of your choosing, is the size of the jump jet that is appropriate.


Tell me, would you take the brakes off a semi-trailer and put them on your prius because you want to stop better?

If I could put a Jake Brake on my car, YES I WOULD. Would laugh my butt off everytime I hit the brakes and freaked out every person near me.

[KitK]

3rdworld, on 11 April 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Never blamed it on PGI. I never even implied that. I even stated that the entire system is just another idiotic holdover from an outdated CBT rule set. Along with Atlas's having the same amount of internal space as a spider....

Gee...you sound bitter. So, this isn't about the OP's question anymore, it's about your longstanding gripes with CBT rules not being realistic enough for you. Probably should move it to off-topic or sarna.net where this has been hashed out a hundred times already.

Oh, and FYI, internal space is quantified by critical slots, not square meters - ie. it's an abstract concept not a concrete measurement.

[Relic1701]

Why we don't put big jump jets on small mechs....

http://www.darwinawa...win1995-04.html

[Tie Ma]

mwhighlander, on 11 April 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

The class of jump jets are merely the size for use on bigger mechs.

Depending on the weight of the mech of your choosing, is the size of the jump jet that is appropriate.


Tell me, would you take the brakes off a semi-trailer and put them on your prius because you want to stop better?

no but i would take the engine out of a M5 and put it into a Z4 so it would go faster.

[Alois Hammer]

mwhighlander, on 11 April 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Tell me, would you take the brakes off a semi-trailer and put them on your prius because you want to stop better?

Nope. The station wagon rear brakes fitted onto the Shelby GT350 in place of the stock Mustang rear brakes added plenty of stopping power, and didn't require adding a compressed air system to work them like semi-trailer brakes would have.