191 replies to this topic

[TruePoindexter]

Adridos, on 12 April 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Random ammo explosions would be unacceptable.
If they had an actually definable factor to them, however, then they wouldn't be all that bad.

Altough, a little point about the TT heatscale.... It is based around heat neutral mechs. Those points when you slow down and etc. come when you fire more than your HS can handle and get excessive heat, which is not the way it works in MW:O.

Agreed - ammo explosions would not fly specifically because of the way MWO handles heat. A movement penalty is sufficient to discourage riding your heat levels too high consistently.

[Denno]

No to the ops suggestion. Alpha builds are just not aproblem. Personal tactics and common sense are, maybe. Do you die too fast? Is that why you hate high damage builds? Tried different chasis? Different tactics?

Don't penalize me for knowing, and being able to aim well enough during stress to right torso that Hunchie that is racing at me.
Don't penalize me for having to position, choose my shots and aim properly in a high alpha, high heat build.
Don't penalize the guy who is clever enough to sneak up on my poptard and whale on me with a short range build.

Just no to nerfing everyone.

Edited by Denno, 12 April 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Adridos, on 12 April 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Random ammo explosions would be unacceptable.

How precisely does your mech sustain damage and randomly explode from heat NOW?
THAT is ok but overheated explosives ... exploding ... is not?

[Shadowsword8]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

OOOOOR
Impliment the TT Heat table:


Note how you slow down (loss of movement points) as you exceed your heat, have more chances of exploding (due to ammo), your aim gets screwed too

Every time someone quote this table, I wonder about what the quoter think he's doing...

Here's a little fact: In TT, a Hellstar with it's 30 DHS can keep firing 4 Clan ERPPC without ever overheating (60 damage alphas).
In MWO, even 60 DHS, assuming you could fit them, you'd quickly overheat with 4 ERPPC.

DO. NOT. QUOTE. THIS TABLE.

Every weapon in MWO has had it's heat more or less tripled (rate of fire tripled, heat values kept more or less the same), while DHS have been nerfed hard. How can you even think this table has any relevance?

[TehSBGX]

Vhetra, on 12 April 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

I don't understand the issue here. What needs to be "fixed" about high alphas? People throw lots of weapons on, fire them at once, then they overheat and become a punching bag for everyone else.

EXACTLY! Alphas already have a drawback, they generate lots of heat and you take a huge risk if you miss.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Shadowsword8, on 12 April 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Every time someone quote this table, I wonder about what the quoter think he's doing...

Here's a little fact: In TT, a Hellstar with it's 30 DHS can keep firing 4 Clan ERPPC without ever overheating (60 damage alphas).
In MWO, even 60 DHS, assuming you could fit them, you'd quickly overheat with 4 ERPPC.

DO. NOT. QUOTE. THIS TABLE.

Every weapon in MWO has had it's heat more or less tripled (rate of fire tripled, heat values kept more or less the same), while DHS have been nerfed hard. How can you even think this table has any relevance?

SOMETHING LIKE THIS NOT NECESSARILY THIS EXACTLY

Was that REALLY that hard to undersatand for you?

[Adridos]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

How precisely does your mech sustain damage and randomly explode from heat NOW?
THAT is ok but overheated explosives ... exploding ... is not?

Random explosion at any given moment when you are above 40% heat even when you're not overheated is far worse than knowing you will blow up if you override to get that final shot off.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Adridos, on 12 April 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Random explosion at any given moment when you are above 40% heat even when you're not overheated is far worse than knowing you will blow up if you override to get that final shot off.

a magical explosion that kills you for no apparent reason is ok?

Yeah its not for me...

Shadowsword8, on 12 April 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Every time someone quote this table, I wonder about what the quoter think he's doing...

Here's a little fact: In TT, a Hellstar with it's 30 DHS can keep firing 4 Clan ERPPC without ever overheating (60 damage alphas).
In MWO, even 60 DHS, assuming you could fit them, you'd quickly overheat with 4 ERPPC.

DO. NOT. QUOTE. THIS TABLE.

Every weapon in MWO has had it's heat more or less tripled (rate of fire tripled, heat values kept more or less the same), while DHS have been nerfed hard. How can you even think this table has any relevance?

also; Yeah basing this game on TT would be SUCH a terrible idea -
Oh **** thats exactly what theyre doing in this game RIGHT NOW - if you listen to what the devs say

[GODzillaGSPB]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

OOOOOR
Impliment the TT Heat table:


Note how you slow down (loss of movement points) as you exceed your heat, have more chances of exploding (due to ammo), your aim gets screwed too

I have to admit I'd really like that. It will probably give me a hard time, too. I build all my mechs with a good HE - 1.3 to 1.5 usually - but I still run hot and even shut down from time to time. So I will have to get better and work on my discipline when this gets implemented.

But it would ultimately balance some of the more rediculous builds (6 ppc Stalkers) and will slow down the matches. People either learn to play with more discipline or they will really feel the impact instead of just watching a red bar getting bigger.

Thumbs up for this!

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 12 April 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Shadowsword8]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

SOMETHING LIKE THIS NOT NECESSARILY THIS EXACTLY

Was that REALLY that hard to undersatand for you?

Still a bad idea.

The idea behind this is too cripple mechs before they can throw 3 or 4 alphas, so you'd make the negative effects start before the current 100%, right? That would mean rethinking the whole weapon balance (mechs with the ability to mix a Guass or two in their alpha would become almost immune to heat, compared to mech with energy slots without that) and might kill clan tech before it even get released.

You can get a table like that working when you reduce the enermous heat differences between some of the weapons (one PPC in TT has it's heat canceled by 5 DHS. In MWO, you need 22, yes, 22 DHS to do the same). AND reduce the damage of every weapons, espescially the pinpoint ones, to compensate for the lower heat. That mean basically redoing the whole game design.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 12 April 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Adridos]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

a magical explosion that kills you for no apparent reason is ok?

Yeah its not for me...

No apparent reason? You overheated like a noob and then purposefuly pushed the override+start combo to take a risk of blowing up (well.... risk.... 3 seconds and your internals are done for sure).

[DegeneratePervert]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

yes, up with RNG!!
Lets roll virtual dice!



boating isnt battletech huh? So the Catapult A-1 ONLY exists here and is TOTALLY not a battletech design at all?
Your reply is so asinine that unless youre trolling, you sir are the one who isnt a fan at all.

Also Flashbulb. Boating at it's finest.

[Matthias99]

Fut, on 12 April 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

The best way to slow down all the Alpha-striking would be to impose penalties to various things due to high heat.
Heat at 65% and your weapon convergence slows down a bit.
Heat at 75% and your torso twisting/arm movement slows down a bit.
Heat at 85% and your HUD starts to fickle out.

Something like that. As it is right now, you can hover around 100% heat with almost no ill effects...

This would be a deterrent to running overly hot or randomly alpha-ing all the time with a lot of big weapons.

Random ammo explosions before the shutdown point would be bad. "100%" heat should be where you start taking permanent damage or blowing up, or you're just going to infuriate new players.

I could maybe see a SMALL heat or accuracy penalty when firing more than, say, 20 damage points worth of weapons at once (or in a very short time). Maybe also a small accuracy penalty while moving at high speed or jump-jetting even for single shots. That would reduce the 'pinpoint poptart alpha strike at 1000m' complaint while not crippling high-burst builds in general (which are a valid choice).

[WassonG]

Alpha-striking isn't really an inherent problem - the problem with is is alphing with burst-heat weapons (the PPC mostly) and throwing a mechs heat index up to a threshold of like what would be 140%.

...regardless of allowing shutdown to take place, there is no reason why heatsinks would not be blowing out and failing, enmass. 100% heat - that means that is the maximum allowed heat index. Don't go over it. Too much heat should be critically damaging to PPCs as well, they're basically just a huge 7-ton electrical device...almost literally a small fusion reactor that fires a huge plasmoid-like projectile. Something like that is probably designed to work in high levels of heat - but when it fails it would probably do so catastrophically. You could introduce PPC heat-failure that includes a Guass-like explosion (less damage to represent it's smaller size and weight). You would see Stalker PPC boats behaving themselves very quickly.

it's simple risk-reward that needs to be more pervasive in the game.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Adridos, on 12 April 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

No apparent reason? You overheated like a noob and then purposefuly pushed the override+start combo to take a risk of blowing up (well.... risk.... 3 seconds and your internals are done for sure).

Agaion, how? Magically, because the devs said you blow up for having high heat instead of shutting down. Stupidest design decision ever imo.

[John Norad]

jay35, on 12 April 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Everything is fine as it is.

No.
Sorry, but no.
Whatever it is you're smoking, I want some of it.

[Marcus Cvellus]

Recycling! Not eco friendly kind but weapon one. Keep TT damage, adjust for TT 10 second recycle and damage output, add convergence and convergence time and look: problem solved. After that you can even bring back tt armor values, it aint gonna make a problem.

[Pht]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

I know it has been discussed but I think people freak out immediately when they read it cuz they think it will turn into a skill less brawlfest.

Lets start by saying firing Weapons Individually will still be Pinpoint

however when you shoot more it starts to be less accurate example (numbers subject to balance)

1 weapon - pinpoint

2 weapon - 2 Degree deviation off center

3 weapon - 4 degree deviation off center

4 weapon - 8 degree deviation off center

5+ weapons - 10 degree deviation off center

This idea of allowing singular weapons to be perfectly aimable has been hashed out, and besides utterly ignoring the fact that the 'Mechs don't perform like this in the lore anywhere, it's still prone to all sorts of nasty problems.

For one, this will just encourage everyone to take the single hardest hitting weapon they can find, find the appropriately campable choke point, and just aim for cockpit/center torso/legs ... pop out, shoot, re-hide, rinse, wash, repeat.

Add a few team-mates and render chokepoint impassable and the game becomes an MW4 style camping sniper fest again.

The proper fix for the MW video game series is to have the 'Mechs perform in combat as they perform in combat in the lore.

Edited by Pht, 12 April 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[LordBraxton]

mwhighlander, on 11 April 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

nah

heat penalty for stacking seems a lot easier

[Cest7]

World of Tanks is Thataway =►
There is a reason I am playing this game instead of World of Cone of fire. This is the umpteenth time this topic has been brought up since closed beta.

A history lesson:
RBS was suggested back in closed beta as an alternative to convergence. After much debate, it was eventually scrapped. Convergence is "controllable" by the player by adjusting aim. Having random spread on weapons instead of convergence pushes the game away from a skill based shooter and more to a luck based game. Luck is all fine and dandy for TT where you're sitting around rolling dice. This is an FPS, players want accuracy.

I've said it before, and I'll say it agian: The game is too far into development to change any of the weapon or firing mechanics. I am absolutely opposed the idea of RBS. If such a drastic change were to be pushed this late in the game, players (including myself) would start leaving in droves.

High damage alpha builds are part of the game and have as many weaknesses as they do strengths.

NO RBS!!!