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To Fix High Alpha Mechs


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#101 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:25 AM

View PostHawker, on 12 April 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

no it isn't, and I highly doubt you understand Battletech. Mechwarrior is about sniping, not Battletech.

BatleTech:
Clan Warhawk; I am firing my 5 Large Pulse lasers into your center torso. So -2 for Pulse, +3 or called shot, -2 for Pulse laser specialist, 3 Gunner... I need twos to hit! Oh you ran +2, Medium Range +2 so 6s to hit.

You were saying something about BattleTech that was untrue?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 April 2013 - 03:31 AM.


#102 Tickdoff Tank

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:39 AM

View PostGODzillaGSPB, on 12 April 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Forget it. The majority wants boating. The majority wants absolute freedom in hardpoints. The majority are simply no BattleTech or MechWarrior fans whatsoever.


TT allowed for more freedom in building a mech then we have in MWO. Many CBT fans are annoyed by the limitations that we already have.

#103 Thunder Child

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:47 AM

View PostTenzek, on 12 April 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:


Posted Image

Now who looks silly?

OMG! The driver of that boat is INVISIBLE!

#104 Chemie

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:54 AM

I was reading the BT books and in one they introduced the gauss cannon (Phelan Wolf was up against one). Anyway, they said that the gauss took so much power, it would lock out the other weapons for a period of time.

First, I wish PGI had done that instead of the double nerf health and explosion to make gauss useless in torso mounting. but for boating, this would be an easy solution. Fire more than 2 of the same high damage weapon, and you have to wait 3 seconds for energy restore.

Gauss
PPC
ER PCC
LL
ER LL

That would force you to cycle vs alpha with 6 PPC which is just plain broken meta.

Edited by Chemie, 12 April 2013 - 03:54 AM.


#105 Thunder Child

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:55 AM

Additionally, I liked that idea that some guy mentioned earlier about Fixed Hardpoints hitting at specific spacings, while arm mounted weapons could converge on the crosshairs. Admittedly, this would mean each chassis would need its own personal crosshair display on the HUD, for the various hardpoints spaced around the mech.
TADA! Predictable fire patterns, without pinpoint 60pt PPC Alphas at 800m. The skill then, would be to fire your weapons in the correct alignment groupings to deal all of your damage to a target location. Real skill, not point click, I cored you lolz skill.

#106 Shadowsword8

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:02 AM

View PostHawker, on 12 April 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

...large wall of text...


Customisation and specialized loadouts are bad for the game?

No. remove it, and you end up with just a generic shooter. Over half of my motivation for playing is to see "my" mech at work. If you remove the thing that make it "my" mech, if it is just some impersonnal tool for fighting other impersonnal tools, it would be really, really BORING, to the point that I wouldn't bother loging in anymore.



The ability to kill fast a mech that isn't using cover is bad for the game?

Again, no. Remove it, and the result is that focus fire will reign even more supreme that it does right now. The only accepted and acceptable tactic will be that all stay together, all focus one, and it will be far less interesting that it is right now.

Those who want battles similar to the way it works in TT or books should stop daydreaming. It just won't happen outside a turn-based game, because the average player want to win more than he want that kind of slow-paced brawling fight. So a way to bring quick death to the opponent will always be found, and then imposed as the standard...

#107 John Norad

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:19 AM

- Better heat system (slower buildup, slower dissipation. with penalties! *omg*)
- Jumpjet shaking
- Slight deviation when firing weapons located in different locations
- Longer shutdown time

Give it a whirl, see what happens. I predict it would be a lot better, and nothing of that is unrealistic or arbitrary.

#108 JuiceKeeper

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:38 AM

i would love to see that when you drop tonnage from mech u gain speed. I really dont understand why it isnt implemented in MWO. It would give us amazing number of builds too. Was thinking if it is restricted in lore for omnis or something but i dont know i dont know all the backgrounds that much :).
I think it was in older MW games and i loved it. I would love to bunker out boats with ultra fast CTF little bit lightier but much more faster :o. I allways used to build heavys but more with speed and punch for close range.

#109 Hawker

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:59 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 12 April 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

BatleTech:
Clan Warhawk; I am firing my 5 Large Pulse lasers into your center torso. So -2 for Pulse, +3 or called shot, -2 for Pulse laser specialist, 3 Gunner... I need twos to hit! Oh you ran +2, Medium Range +2 so 6s to hit.

You were saying something about BattleTech that was untrue?


Yep it is untrue because targeting computers are not in this timeline. Any thing else you have to add.

#110 ShadowbaneX

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:59 AM

I think the way to fix boating/high alpha mechs is just to differentiate the hard points. Make it so you've got 2 (or more) classes of hard points, so that only certain hard points can mount the largest weapons.

#111 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:06 AM

View PostHawker, on 12 April 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:


Yep it is untrue because targeting computers are not in this timeline. Any thing else you have to add.

Just that you said:

Quote

no it isn't, and I highly doubt you understand Battletech. Mechwarrior is about sniping, not Battletech.
You did not specify a timeline, you said Battletech (which implies ALL of BattleTech) I stand by the statement that sniping does in fact have a tried and tested place in CBT.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 April 2013 - 05:07 AM.


#112 Hawker

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:09 AM

You are also taking it out of context. Rarely did anyone target like that in the board game, unless the mech was shutdown. I know I played in a lot of tournaments and won two National Championships.

The difference in MWO is people can do that at 1000 meters. So stop being a drama queen and try and muddy the waters. Understand the context and the intent of my remarks.

#113 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:17 AM

View PostHawker, on 12 April 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

You are also taking it out of context. Rarely did anyone target like that in the board game, unless the mech was shutdown. I know I played in a lot of tournaments and won two National Championships.

The difference in MWO is people can do that at 1000 meters. So stop being a drama queen and try and muddy the waters. Understand the context and the intent of my remarks.

I ran World wide events as a FanPro Commando, helped play test rules, and you must not have played the Clans a lot, cause I can count on two fingers how often players with targeting computers didn't call shots like that. MWO has 1,000 meter ranges, TT does not, otherwise TT players would be doing 1,000 meter shots too.

The intent of your post was to say that, we TT players cannot do what is done in this game, I proved you wrong.

I will be interested on how Targeting computers will be handled in the MMO. If players are complaining now, how will they feel when an accuracy even higher is introduced?

#114 SilvaDraconis

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:44 AM

Sorry OP but I dissagree.

The use of Alpha, and my ability to support it's related heat output, is a pilot decision and not just the noob key we start with by default before seperating weapon groups.

I mount weapons systems to maximize output at Long Med or Short range but on occasion there is obvious benefit to 'unloading' on the back of an opponent or in hopes of getting that lucky kill or even just to do some damage before all seven of you kill my butt.

There's nothing wrong with Alpha as-is. It makes abosutely no sense to me how my weapon systems, all so very very accurate (yeah ok) are made suddenly completely innacurate by mashing a little red button that fires them simultaneously. Simultaneously. Its a word that means 'at the same time' therefore why would they be knocked off target? Chain fire of different weapon systems might produce the result you describe but not an Alpha, and I do NOT suggest alteration of chain mechanics either.

If you don't like Alpha, keep your distance and don't give a reason for its use by showing me weakness. If I do use it, overheat and just stand there, well hell pound me for making the mistake.

#115 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:46 AM

View Postmwhighlander, on 11 April 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

nah


Agreed.

#116 Zyllos

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:56 AM

I will leave my old suggestion here:

Quote


Something I have begin to notice in MWO is that builds which can pin-point a lot of weaponry onto a single point for as long as possible than builds which can actually deal more damage but generally spreads the damage across a target.

This is part of why the phenomenon on why players generally only aim for the torsos. All their weapons can easily pin-point to a Left/Right Torso, which also destroys the arms in the process. Thus, there is little emphasis on destroying arms because you can just aim all your weaponry at the torso and destroy a mech or maim it by killing both a torso and arm.

I suggest three mechanic changes to fix this issue by placing more emphasis on arm mounted weaponry while removing some ability for all weapons to target a specific point, thus allowing more weapon fire to spread.

Suggestion One - Arm Actuators Given Meaning

This is a brand new mechanic added, which I believe PGI is planning on adding at some point in time. It is fairly straight forward implementation based on how existing mechs already behave and actually sticks to the TT actuator charts fairly well.

Shoulder actuator - Allow arm weaponry to converge on the Arm crosshair.
Upper Arm actuator - Allow vertical deviation of the Arm crosshair from the Torso crosshair.
Lower Arm actuator - Allow horizontal deviation of the Arm crosshair from the Torso crosshair.
Hand actuator - Allow hand related actions to be performed.

Suggestion Two - Torso Mounted Weaponry Do Not Converge

I personally think this is a big balancing factor to the game and part of the reason why nobody aims on arms and everyone can just place the crosshair on a single location and alpha strike, having all damage hit that single location.

I suggest making all torso mounted weaponry only aim straight ahead, aiming in relation to the cockpit view. Basically, a straight line is drawn down the center of the player's perspective. All torso mounted weaponry fires straight ahead from the mech in relation to this line. As a note, arm mounted weaponry will still only fire straight ahead, like torso weaponry. Just both arms point directly at the Arm crosshair.

A good example is the Atlas. The two Center Torso Laser ports will fire straight ahead, not converging on the location on which it is aimed at, but instead will be aimed at the Torso crosshair, landing in relation to the weapons mounted on the mech. So the two Lasers will land below the Torso crosshair, one directly below (because the cockpit is actually out of the left eye, thus the left Center Torso laser will be directly below you) and the other below and slightly to the right. The Ballistic and Missile hardpoints will be aiming to the below/left and below/right of the Torso crosshair.

What this does is removes the ability to pin-point all weaponry mounted on a mech (unless it is all in the arms) to hit a single location. Thus, placing a larger emphasis on arm mounted weaponry (with intact Shoulder actuators). While alpha strikes will still be around, they will not be the single location devastating that they are now, but instead be the wild firing of multiple systems to place as much damage on the target as fast as possible, not worrying about where on the mech it hits.

And with the greater emphasis on allowing convergence on arms only, players might start choosing to destroy an arm first before taking out the Left/Right Torso, especially on mechs which mount a large amount of weaponry on those arms.

Below is an example of what I am talking about:

Posted Image



TLDR

Remove ability to fire multiple weapons out of the same weapon port at the same time.
Add arm actuator functionality.
Make torso weaponry not converge, but instead fire straight ahead based on distance to selected target or longest range weapon.
All weapons fire straight ahead.


From the above picture, weapons converge onto a square matrix based on their physical location. Thus, if you alpha striked, it would end up spreading damage across sections but this would allow you to torso twist away and focus on combat maneuvers.

But if you want weapons to hit a single location, you would have to fire groups of logically located weapons, which will allow you to aim those weapons without effecting other currently firing weapons. The drawback is that you must continue to face your opponent to continue to deliver accurate fire on a specific location.

This is what the above is suppose to accomplish:

Group Firing:
- Advantage
  • Allow for minute manipulation for hitting a specific location
  • Allows for more heat control
- Disadvantage
  • Must keep facing target while firing groups
  • Requires more focus
Alpha Strike:
- Advantage
  • Gets all weapons down range on the target
  • Allows for combat manuevers between firing
  • Requires less focus
- Disadvantage
  • Weapon fire is spread around
  • Less control on heat
Now, interestingly, this doesn't effect some of the popular builds. Like the 2x AC/20 Jagermech, these weapons are in the arms, thus both shots will converge onto a single point because their arms are identical in profile. But I think that is fine for balance because those weapons are in a vulnerable spot.

#117 Malyshus

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:10 AM

Why not turn the Alpha Strike into something that causes weapon fire to not converge at all, instead they simply fire straightforward in a cluster from where they are located on the mech. The center of the crosshairs would represent where the cockpit is centered, weapons mounted on arms/torsos would run a straight line slightly under (and left/right) of where that is directly related to the positioning on the mech itself.

It would prevent any issues with MOA calculations causing massive deviations at medium distances and still help remove the issue with multiple high dmg weapons converging onto something the size of a dime for instant destruction on components/sections.

Just my thought.

#118 Thecure

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:14 AM

View PostKarr285, on 11 April 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

I know it has been discussed but I think people freak out immediately when they read it cuz they think it will turn into a skill less brawlfest.

Lets start by saying firing Weapons Individually will still be Pinpoint

however when you shoot more it starts to be less accurate example (numbers subject to balance)

1 weapon - pinpoint

2 weapon - 2 Degree deviation off center

3 weapon - 4 degree deviation off center

4 weapon - 8 degree deviation off center

5+ weapons - 10 degree deviation off center


As a 4xPPC+2xERPPC pilot I really hate it when my shots go exactly where I place them. I think you might be on to something there...
If I may take your thought a bit further? Lets say you are attacked by an enemy using only one of his weapons at a time BUT what if you get focused by two or more of them?
1 Enemy - pinpoint
2 Enemys - They take damage to their legs.
3 Enemys - Damage to their legs AND hands.
4 Enemys or more - They insta-cockpit each other.
Thoughts?

#119 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:39 AM

View PostThunder Child, on 12 April 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

OMG! The driver of that boat is INVISIBLE!


Guardian ECM?

#120 Kojin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:55 AM

To me convergence at range makes perfect sense. When you align your weapons you make them hit a point at your desired range and then adjust that when needed. The adjustments in MWO are done via 'locking' a target and the onboard computer doing the aligning.

The problem to me is convergence at extreme close ranges which shouldn't be able to happen without some serious angle changes of the weapoins in their mounts.

Maybe there should be a little more delay at extreme close ranges and a minimum converge point based on a percentage of the weapon's intended effective range and weapon location. This would make people think about where they're placing weapons a bit more and encourage sniper builds to be more symetrical so as to maintain a better distance convergence that then sacrifices their close range ability a little. It would also make mechs with arms different to those with just pods and create a bit more varience in playstyles per mech.





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