191 replies to this topic

[TruePoindexter]

GODzillaGSPB, on 12 April 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

It was actually meant as a general statement. I've seen so many suggestions and idea - some were good, some were bad. In this particular case I agree that this kinda "dice rolling" is a bad idea.

But the community so far said "meh" to most, if not all ideas. They want no change. No hardpoints limited in size. No heat penalty for boating. Nothing of that. Absolute liberty in the hardpoints. Like I said, we are already at 90% omni-mechs. The only difference is that there are definied hardpoints, but apart from that you can tinker with the mechs as if the Star League never left the IS.

And that is neither BattleTech, nor MechWarrior - in my opinion.

I agree - people seem to not understand that the hard point system is what protects us from some of the MW3 League era boats. With no hard points I would immediately start going back down those roads. 20 SSRM2 boats? 14 Medium Lasers? Imagine the horrors possible.

[Karr285]

TruePoindexter, on 12 April 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

I agree - people seem to not understand that the hard point system is what protects us from some of the MW3 League era boats. With no hard points I would immediately start going back down those roads. 20 SSRM2 boats? 14 Medium Lasers? Imagine the horrors possible.

its funny you say that is a horror possible when its just around the corner and you tell me to not bring up clans.
14 medium lasers = Bad. Clans can do that. Dont bring that up....

Edited by Karr285, 12 April 2013 - 12:41 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Brilig, on 12 April 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

Nothing in my post has anything to do with RNG. I don't like RNG. That's why my fix suggestion has nothing to do with it.

it was sarcasm -.-
I know its hard but try at least lol

TruePoindexter, on 12 April 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

I agree - people seem to not understand that the hard point system is what protects us from some of the MW3 League era boats. With no hard points I would immediately start going back down those roads. 20 SSRM2 boats? 14 Medium Lasers? Imagine the horrors possible.

so wait, that was possible... in a mechwarrior game...

Um... but liking that makes one not a fan of the series

Mind you Im not exemplifying what Id want in the game, Im pointing out the fallacies in your own arguments

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 12 April 2013 - 12:43 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Karr285, on 12 April 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

its funny you say that is a horror possible when its just around the corner and you tell me to not bring up clans.
14 medium lasers = Bad. Clans can do that. Dont bring that up....

At this point you are not challenging my assertions and bringing up Clans is not relevant to the present. Please explain how this system would not just force top tier players to chain heavy weapons. If you can't do that we are done

Karr285, on 12 April 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Dont care if you played them or not. Playing them isn't the issue that they exist is.
Except when its played by people who know not to overheat, I play a 6LL stalker for laughs its easy rarely do i shut myself down unless I am going for a finishing shot. but again I can alpha 3 times dealing 162 damage in 9 seconds before i have to cool off thats either a Torso-ed atlas or a Bright red CT atlas.

Multiply that by the number of the same mech on the team.

This is the problem I have with the examples given - you're talking about shooting a statue. Does the target ever move? Does the target and his team ever fire back? It doesn't appear so.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

so wait, that was possible... in a mechwarrior game...

Um... but liking that makes one not a fan of the series

In MW3 the only limit was that you could carry up to 16 total weapons. Ranked league mechs included:
16 ER Small Laser Strider/Shadowcat
12 ER Medium Laser Strider/Shadowcat
12 Flamer Strider
10 SSRM4 Sunder
6 SSRM6 MadCat
16 LRM5 Daishi
2 UAC20 Thor/Avatar

MW4 implemented a hard point system specifically to combat this and I'm glad MWO has continued this trend.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 12 April 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Tenzek]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

Or are you one of those funny people who think the term "boat" means something other than what it does around here?

Now who looks silly?

[MustrumRidcully]

Supposedly, there is a convergence delay? What if PGI just started to work on the delay for this? Maybe it needs to be longer? But that must be done with care, otherwise things will become to unpredictable. I would probably try to put the delay so that the first 2/3 remain quickly (to avoid arm mounted weapon shooting of in random directions) but the last few centidegrees or however degrees it would need to be) would take a while, so that it's unlikely weapons ever perfectly align.

Maybe convergence could even be instable, say, swinging from "a little bit too far" over "pinpoint perfect" to "a little too close"? (with "too far" and "too close" leading to something like a 3m radius in error at 1000m, and proportionally becoming less with lower distance). But then I would want to have some kind of indicator so that players can learn to time it, like a shooter learns how to coordinate breathing and shooting.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 April 2013 - 12:51 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

TruePoindexter, on 12 April 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

In MW3 the only limit was that you could carry up to 16 total weapons. Ranked league mechs included:
16 ER Small Laser Strider/Shadowcat
12 ER Medium Laser Strider/Shadowcat
12 Flamer Strider
10 SSRM4 Sunder
6 SSRM6 MadCat
16 LRM5 Daishi
2 UAC20 Thor/Avatar

Yes, I realize, the point I was making was that saying you arent a fan of mechwarrior because you like things that were in previous mechwarrior games already or that boating isnt a part of mechwarrior/battletech when it was in fact IN both of those things, your (or rather the other guys') argument fails

[Kaboodle]

So basically, you want to remove skill, to increase skill. Making it so weapons have a chance to not go where they are aimed, is REDUCING SKILL and INCREASING LUCK.

This does not work. Sorry.

How about we make it so crosshairs wiggle like they should when you're moving instead, that way mechs that are reliant on pinpoint accuracy, sacrifice being mobile to maintain that accuracy.

[Brilig]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

it was sarcasm -.-
I know its hard but try at least lol

Sorry thought you were being sarcastic because you thought I was in favor of RNG.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 April 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Supposedly, there is a convergence delay? What if PGI just started to work on the delay for this? Maybe it needs to be longer? But that must be done with care, otherwise things will become to unpredictable. I would probably try to put the delay so that the first 2/3 remain quickly (to avoid arm mounted weapon shooting of in random directions) but the last few centidegrees or however degrees it would need to be) would take a while, so that it's unlikely weapons ever perfectly align.

Maybe convergence could even be instable, say, swinging from "a little bit too far" over "pinpoint perfect" to "a little too close"? (with "too far" and "too close" leading to something like a 3m radius in error at 1000m, and proportionally becoming less with lower distance). But then I would want to have some kind of indicator so that players can learn to time it, like a shooter learns how to coordinate breathing and shooting.

you ever shoot at something really far away only to have the weapons youre firing cross halfway between you and the target?
Ive seen it quite a few times on a dual gauss k2, annoying, really

[TruePoindexter]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 April 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Supposedly, there is a convergence delay? What if PGI just started to work on the delay for this? Maybe it needs to be longer? But that must be done with care, otherwise things will become to unpredictable. I would probably try to put the delay so that the first 2/3 remain quickly (to avoid arm mounted weapon shooting of in random directions) but the last few centidegrees or however degrees it would need to be) would take a while, so that it's unlikely weapons ever perfectly align.

Maybe convergence could even be instable, say, swinging from "a little bit too far" over "pinpoint perfect" to "a little too close"? (with "too far" and "too close" leading to something like 3m at 1000m). But then I would want to have some kind of indicator so that players can learn to time it, like a shooter learns how to coordinate breathing and shooting.

There is one - weapons are constantly shifting their firing angle and you can fire them out of angle if you move too quickly. Plus it is unreliable. See in this recent video (fast forward to 4:30) to see how arm convergence in particular is wonky with the Gauss Rifle.

Shots will sometimes fly off into the sky or streak downward inexplicably. Oddly the reticle turns red as if the shot hit so it may have hit on the server side and the client side graphic is simply off.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Brilig, on 12 April 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Sorry thought you were being sarcastic because you thought I was in favor of RNG.

well it wasnt sarcasm as much as being ... fecetious or however you spell it

TruePoindexter, on 12 April 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Oddly the reticle turns red as if the shot hit so it may have hit on the server side and the client side graphic is simply off.

Yeah that happens with LRMs even when they hit hills. or used to

[Turist0AT]

Malora Sidewinder, on 11 April 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

alpha builds have weaknesses just like any other mechs. it requires pilot skill to overcome, not nerfing to suit your lack thereof.

this

[Psikez]

People hate that you can aim in this game?

Fairly poorly too with convergence and terrain issues already.

I wish I had an indicator that told me my arm was actually buried in a building when I tried to fire.

Or when I'm too close to a raven and my gauss shot flies off at a 70 degree angle.

Seems like enough deviation for me

[MustrumRidcully]

Kaboodle, on 12 April 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

So basically, you want to remove skill, to increase skill. Making it so weapons have a chance to not go where they are aimed, is REDUCING SKILL and INCREASING LUCK.

This does not work. Sorry.

How about we make it so crosshairs wiggle like they should when you're moving instead, that way mechs that are reliant on pinpoint accuracy, sacrifice being mobile to maintain that accuracy.

Holding your mouse cursor on a point is not any particular level of skill. Or do you consider it skill that you can click the Post Button with 100 % accuracy?

It becomes more skilled if that post button would be moving. It becomes even more skill if there is a predictable delay between you pressing the mouse button and the mouse button to be triggered. It becomes even more skill if the pointer itself is rotating on a circle and you only control the center of the circle with the mouse.

The more variables you have to account for when firing a weapon, the more skill it requires. The important thing however is that these variables must be somewhat predictable. If the button moves erratically with no discernible pattern, then you cannot use skill to compensate. If the mouse pointer rotates at random speed or random distances from the center, you cannot compensate.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 April 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Yes, I realize, the point I was making was that saying you arent a fan of mechwarrior because you like things that were in previous mechwarrior games already or that boating isnt a part of mechwarrior/battletech when it was in fact IN both of those things, your (or rather the other guys') argument fails

Well - being honest. I am a fan of MechWarrior/Battletech because of the combination of intriguing game play with customization. The depth in customization is why I'm here. If MWO didn't have a mechlab I wouldn't play - this is why I never gave MW:LL more than a passing look. To me half the game is in the mechlab.

[Karr285]

TruePoindexter, on 12 April 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

At this point you are not challenging my assertions and bringing up Clans is not relevant to the present. Please explain how this system would not just force top tier players to chain heavy weapons. If you can't do that we are done

Ok I will,


6 med lasers vs 3 chain fired Large laser (fired 1 second apart to remove deviation)

2 med both CT 10 / large laser CT 9
1 second wait
2 med both CT 10 / Large CT 9
1 second wait
2 med both CT 10 / Large CT 9
6 mediums = 30 over 7 seconds / large 27 damage over 7 seconds

I wasnt asking for a 5meter divergence, and its just the concept I am trying to show . lets say now we tried to shoot 3 lasers at a time now the large lasers are superior at 270m

Edited by Karr285, 12 April 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Karr285, on 12 April 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Ok I will,


6 med lasers vs 3 chain fired Large laser (fired 1 second apart to remove deviation)

2 med both CT 10 / large laser CT 9
1 second wait
2 med both CT 10 / Large CT 9
1 second wait
2 med both CT 10 / Large CT 9
6 mediums = 30 over 7 seconds / large 27 damage over 7 seconds

I wasnt asking for a 5meter divergence, and its just the concept I am trying to show but it for lets say now we tried to shoot 3 lasers at a time now the large lasers are superior at 270m

So wait two weapons don't diverge now? Your initial example said that firing more than one would introduce divergence. Did you change your mind?

Anyway using your new revised setup It's clear that I should fire two weapons at a time now. So a 4 PPC/LL mech firing them in groups of two would do well. Oh your 6 LL Stalker is still viable just with grouping. Best part is the 2 AC20 mech doesn't need to be changed at all and can be used as is.

You're not fixing the supposed problem which doesn't exist.

[Karr285]

What skill the only mechs you cant keep a full beam duration on are lights and cicadas if you are trying for leg shots or lag or whatever you want to blame it on. Plus HSR isnt even in the game yet for PPC/Ballistics so who knows how even more ridiculous this is going to become since obvious hits on even assaults/heavies dont register to where you saw it hit, ie a torso shot visually that dealt damage to the arm)

[SilverMalachite]

I agree with Recoil that would be good if not already there in regards to ballistics/ppc/missiles or ?????? not lasers.