191 replies to this topic

[Salticidae]

This is a skill based game so when i use my skill to aim and lead a target at range i expect my round/laser to go there.

That be said there should be a risk vs reward for doing these alpha's.

Something like if a mech generates 25%+ heat in one shot it has a 10% chance to blow a heatsink up.
The pilot would have to make a risk v reward dissision and could render his mech usless for the entire game if he alpha's to often.

It could easy be explained and implemented with physic baffle.

This would make the very heavy and weak guass rifle the sniper weapon of choice again

Edited by Zyne, 11 April 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

So instead of just Alpha Alpha Alpha you would actually have to manage weapons groups yes I bet that would be very hard to play

So instead of firing a handful of weapons simultaneously you fire single weapons at a time and then complain about something else? Again - what is the problem here?

[Taemien]

I just did a match earlier with just about every boat in the game. There was a SRM Catapult, a PPC Stalker, and even a 4xAC5 Jaegermech. They died and died quick. Especially the Catapult and the Stalker. I stripped both of their arms and they were utterly neutered.

But that lies their weakness. Their weapons are commonly in similar locations and can be chewed off. But of course the real weakness was the fact that each boat had an obvious counter. I was able to avoid their fire and knock off their weapons. SRMs can't damage past 270, PPCs cannot hit fast moving targets reliably and the same with AC5s. Had they had mixed loadouts, this wouldn't have been as easy.

There's no need to nerf boats, they're already some of the weakest configs already.

[TruePoindexter]

Also something to add about TT's heat scales. They work because in TT heat is cooled in cycles. If you generate 50 heat and vent 50 heat you effectively have 0 heat. It's only any remaining heat at the end of a turn that begins to affect the mech. MWO's constant venting on an efficiency curve makes this much more difficult to achieve.

[TeaJunky]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

and now im going to laugh at you for using Sin to calculate this because well for Sin to work you need the Hypotenuse (which is longer than the straight line)

but again the numbers were for DEMONSTRATION purposes of how the system would work

I was writing it in the form of, hypotinuse sin(degree)= adjacent
This causes the calculated deviation (adjacent side) to not be perpendicular to the line of fire (hypotinuse), but I was keeping the math simple. If you want to laugh go ahead, but maybe you should show me how you would have did the numbers.

you also for some reason ignored the fact that any amount of deviation from simultanius fire, will cause some fast recycling weapons, to be un useable, because they can't be chain fired as they recycle faster then the chain fire macro works. Which is why I gavbe the example of ac2, or machine guns. things like this will make impimentation imposable to balance, as it would make only easily chain fired weapons viable.

[LordDante]

Taemien, on 11 April 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

I just did a match earlier with just about every boat in the game. There was a SRM Catapult, a PPC Stalker, and even a 4xAC5 Jaegermech. They died and died quick. Especially the Catapult and the Stalker. I stripped both of their arms and they were utterly neutered.

But that lies their weakness. Their weapons are commonly in similar locations and can be chewed off. But of course the real weakness was the fact that each boat had an obvious counter. I was able to avoid their fire and knock off their weapons. SRMs can't damage past 270, PPCs cannot hit fast moving targets reliably and the same with AC5s. Had they had mixed loadouts, this wouldn't have been as easy.

There's no need to nerf boats, they're already some of the weakest configs already.

GARBAGE ! i played the cheese jagermech a lot and i almost never lost a arm and most certainly NEVER both arms ! before ur able to shoot of the arms i or any remotly skilled Pilot will kill u with the ac/40 easy ! u can kill cheese jm6 much faster by Shooting their side Torsos !

[TeaJunky]

Tenzek, on 11 April 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

He's using the formula to calculate the length of a chord. The triangle is from the center point of the circle, to one point of intersection between the chord and the circle, to the middle point of the chord.

He's just fudging the numbers slightly to assume the mech is also at the edge of the circle, because at that range the chord is close to being a tangent line but not quite.

It's not 100% on but it's within a negligible error for the purpose of this discussion.

(Edit: actually looking back it seems his equation is off, but in favor of making the aim tighter than it should be. It should be radius times 2, and it seems he's just using the radius. )

your right since I am shooting at the center of a mech in theory, my atlus example only needs to be off by 4m not 8. Anyway looking at my numbers they were quick but a little too dirty, unfortanely showing that the deviations are even more inacurate then I was trying to show.

[Karr285]

TeaJunky, on 11 April 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

you also for some reason ignored the fact that any amount of deviation from simultanius fire, will cause some fast recycling weapons, to be un useable, because they can't be chain fired as they recycle faster then the chain fire macro works. Which is why I gavbe the example of ac2, or machine guns. things like this will make impimentation imposable to balance, as it would make only easily chain fired weapons viable.

Well number 1 I dont know why you need a chainfire Macro to use AC2's they work fine without it but anyway, its not like they could make the deviation lower for the low caliber AC's or anything or allow them to have a few seconds of sustained fire before the deviation starts to occur.

[Training Instructor]

Half the replies in this thread are people focusing on the math, rather than the completely legitimate idea the OP has.

Pilot competence? Yeah, I know lots of pilots that can shoot at the enemy while never ever exposing their front to them for return fire....

[Karr285]

You seem to think I am on the receiving end of "Boats" hell I play a 6 LL stalker 90% of the time why? Because it shows the biggest game issue and it seems unless you exploit the silly builds PGI doesnt notice crap. I would rather have a slightly more challenging game then what it is now. 4 seconds and ive blown off an atlas's side torso, yea thats totaly how Mechwarrior should be Ironically though that adding a cone of fire from FPS games makes the game less of an FPS, more about aiming for CT and just trying to get hits rather than pulling wings of flies.

[TruePoindexter]

Training Instructor, on 11 April 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Half the replies in this thread are people focusing on the math, rather than the completely legitimate idea the OP has.

Pilot competence? Yeah, I know lots of pilots that can shoot at the enemy while never ever exposing their front to them for return fire....

No it is a fundamentally flawed idea. It essentially describes a firing control system that doesn't work and would encourage trading firing groups of weapons to firing just one or two at a time. It would mandate the use of large weapons for precise single shots chained and would just damage game play in general.

Plus it doesn't really address the issue that he is complaining about as many of the "boats" people complain about only feature two weapons. The proposed solution doesn't do a thing for this supposed problem.

Finally at no point is it explained why this is necessary.

[TeaJunky]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Well number 1 I dont know why you need a chainfire Macro to use AC2's they work fine without it but anyway, its not like they could make the deviation lower for the low caliber AC's or anything or allow them to have a few seconds of sustained fire before the deviation starts to occur.

How would you fire 4 ac2s with out incuring your proposed accuracy penalty. Since the wepon recycles faster then the chain can cycle. More then 3 ac2 is a waste.

[TruePoindexter]

TeaJunky, on 11 April 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

How would you fire 4 ac2s with out incuring your proposed accuracy penalty. Since the wepon recycles faster then the chain can cycle. More then 3 ac2 is a waste.

You can use a macro to fire the weapons at a rate faster than the default 1s cycle on chain fire. This makes the 6 AC2 Jagermech an entertaining fire hose.

NOTE:I said entertaining - not effective.

[Karr285]

TruePoindexter, on 11 April 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

No it is a fundamentally flawed idea. It essentially describes a firing control system that doesn't work and would encourage trading firing groups of weapons to firing just one or two at a time. It would mandate the use of large weapons for precise single shots chained and would just damage game play in general.

Plus it doesn't really address the issue that he is complaining about as many of the "boats" people complain about only feature two weapons. The proposed solution doesn't do a thing for this supposed problem.

Finally at no point is it explained why this is necessary.

No more Twin AC20/gauss to 1 location no more 6 large laser Stalkers killing atlas's in 3 shots, Also opens up the possibility of a Targeting computer use - Lowers the deviation or lowers the time needed between pinpoint shots.

Worst case if they implemented this for just 1 week is a rollback just for the sake of testing purposes before the clans show up and the really Silly high damage PINPOINT alpha builds start crippling people in 1 alpha 12 er med lasers anyone ?(84 damage)

being able to cripple an atlas in 2 shots,
And it does not force the use of large weapons, shots of 2 or 3 smaller weapons are just as effective but may not always hit 1 spot.

Oh dont forget Dual UAC20's mmm 80 damage in 1 second to 1 location, or 6 CERPPC mmm 90 damage to 1 location the original 12 er meds for 84, oh and dont forget Clan Pulse lasers as 2x our range so 8 LPulse Daishi's will obliterate you, forget the Heat issue these high damage alpha builds has, who cares.

Alpha builds are about peaking out shoot 1 or 2 times then sit and cool off. if I can shoot 2 times without overheat and blow half your mech apart does it really matter if i have to wait 10 secs to cool off now?

Now If this weapon spread was in the game and you knowing that the guy sniping at you can only reliably hit you with 1 or 2 of his heavy hitter weapons now it gives you a change to close the distance, so now even the sniper needs either a buddy to defend or close range weaponry.

TeaJunky, on 11 April 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

How would you fire 4 ac2s with out incuring your proposed accuracy penalty. Since the wepon recycles faster then the chain can cycle. More then 3 ac2 is a waste.

deviation lower for the low caliber AC's or anything or allow them to have a few seconds of sustained fire before the deviation starts to occur. <--- key part right there, IE make the low caliber AC immune to deviation for a few seconds. now they cant have Sustained DPS but more of burst, wait a bit burst etc.

[Victor Morson]

Every time someone complains about alphas..

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 April 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[DegeneratePervert]

Eh.... just make it so that if you overheat, you damage yourself. No need messing with Alphas, they are a core part of any Mechwarrior game.

[Victor Morson]

DegeneratePervert, on 11 April 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Eh.... just make it so that if you overheat, you damage yourself. No need messing with Alphas, they are a core part of any Mechwarrior game.

You already do damage yourself if you overheat, as long as you're over riding and not spiking REALLY hot at 99% or something.

[Karr285]

DegeneratePervert, on 11 April 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Eh.... just make it so that if you overheat, you damage yourself. No need messing with Alphas, they are a core part of any Mechwarrior game.

core part of mechwarrior yes, Primary use for shooting your weapons everytime? I seriously hope that isn't what this stays as. On another part it also curbs jump sniping as your weapons wouldnt all hit same loc so another reason why this would work.

[Karl Streiger]

You can limit big alphas with heat. Instead of having the "standard" heat at firing...you will have a "super" heat curve when discharging firing any weapon...no matter if Gauss or AC 20 or LRM 5 - that heat could be vented by the system much faster.
But a spike that gives you 144 heat for firing 6 PPCs in an instant...your mech could get serious damage even when the heat is removed in the next 3 secs with 1000% of your HPS rate.
So firing 2 PPCs per turn with a short break of 1sec between the shots will prevent such high heat.
Firing an full Alpha of those weapons is a EXTREME Risk - high reward and only acceptable when you are really desperate

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 April 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[DegeneratePervert]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

core part of mechwarrior yes, Primary use for shooting your weapons everytime? I seriously hope that isn't what this stays as. On another part it also curbs jump sniping as your weapons wouldnt all hit same loc so another reason why this would work.

I don't have much of an issue with jump sniping (I do use my 3D for it occasionally since it is fun), but the best way to fix it would be to add significant shake while jumpjetting in heavier mechs.