191 replies to this topic

[Naja]

TeaJunky, on 11 April 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

you do realise that at any good distance 2 degrees wouldn't even hit the target. take the medium laser max range at even 2 derees it would deviate ~9m calculation: 270m sin(2 degrees) = 9.4m
at 10 dgree deviation 270m sin(10 degrees)= 46.9m
if I assume an Atlus is 8 meters wide even at 50 meters away you would miss with all the weapons 50m sin(10 degrees) = 8.6m

Edit: the deviation surgested even at frations of a degree, would make it so that you would neve want to fire more then one weapon at a time making some boated weapons like ac2 useless. I think this idea would never be implimented well.

should be using 270*tan(2) making it 9.4m 1dec.pl

[TruePoindexter]

Karr285, on 11 April 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

No more Twin AC20/gauss to 1 location no more 6 large laser Stalkers killing atlas's in 3 shots, Also opens up the possibility of a Targeting computer use - Lowers the deviation or lowers the time needed between pinpoint shots.

Worst case if they implemented this for just 1 week is a rollback just for the sake of testing purposes before the clans show up and the really Silly high damage PINPOINT alpha builds start crippling people in 1 alpha 12 er med lasers anyone ?(84 damage)

being able to cripple an atlas in 2 shots,
And it does not force the use of large weapons, shots of 2 or 3 smaller weapons are just as effective but may not always hit 1 spot.

Oh dont forget Dual UAC20's mmm 80 damage in 1 second to 1 location, or 6 CERPPC mmm 90 damage to 1 location the original 12 er meds for 84, oh and dont forget Clan Pulse lasers as 2x our range so 8 LPulse Daishi's will obliterate you, forget the Heat issue these high damage alpha builds has, who cares.

Alpha builds are about peaking out shoot 1 or 2 times then sit and cool off. if I can shoot 2 times without overheat and blow half your mech apart does it really matter if i have to wait 10 secs to cool off now?

Now If this weapon spread was in the game and you knowing that the guy sniping at you can only reliably hit you with 1 or 2 of his heavy hitter weapons now it gives you a change to close the distance, so now even the sniper needs either a buddy to defend or close range weaponry.



deviation lower for the low caliber AC's or anything or allow them to have a few seconds of sustained fire before the deviation starts to occur. <--- key part right there, IE make the low caliber AC immune to deviation for a few seconds. now they cant have Sustained DPS but more of burst, wait a bit burst etc.

So you want to damage stock builds like the Hunchback 4P for what? To make firing only single weapons viable? If you don't realize this problem you are not thinking through your proposal.

Don't bring up Clans because they're not in the game yet and even if they were the way you fight a specialty mech remains the same - exploit its weakness. If they're a close range 2 AC20 mech you fight at range with focus fire. SRM boats you do the same thing - fight at range and focus fire them. PPC snipers you close distance with them and they're helpless.

Every single example situation that people list assumes that the victim does not fight back in any logical manner. Do people really just stand there and take the 2 AC20 to the face without maneuvering or shooting back?

[QContinuum]

boating is just the name of the game. So many things i would rather see fixed oh like knock down and collisions damages for one. I've beat lots of 20 cats and jagers it's easy. When your range is only 270 pound on them from a range of 400 with Gauss and LL for example. Learn the different weapons each has advantages and disadvantages. They do need some balancing stil. A spider should go down hard when hit with a Gauss round or AC20 round not just keep on runny. What your suggesting just really won't work all that well. If anything there should maybe be some spread. Weapons wouldn't be that pinpoint accurate. The motions of both assault and defender would make it almost impossible unless your both are totally standing still and who does that anyways. But it could spread the damage out a bit that would be a bit more realistic.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Forget it. The majority wants boating. The majority wants absolute freedom in hardpoints. The majority are simply no BattleTech or MechWarrior fans whatsoever.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Brilig, on 11 April 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Id rather have them all deviate to begin with. The only weapons that should converge are the ones in fully articulated arms.

yes, up with RNG!!
Lets roll virtual dice!

GODzillaGSPB, on 12 April 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Forget it. The majority wants boating. The majority wants absolute freedom in hardpoints. The majority are simply no BattleTech or MechWarrior fans whatsoever.

boating isnt battletech huh? So the Catapult A-1 ONLY exists here and is TOTALLY not a battletech design at all?
Your reply is so asinine that unless youre trolling, you sir are the one who isnt a fan at all.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 12 April 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[Karr285]

Dont bring up the clans they arnt in the game yet. That is funny and typical, It doesn't effect me it doesn't matter. Yup lets wait until its a problem before we fix it

Just saying weapon divergence resolves a lot of issues we have now and many more that are just around the corner and if you don't think its an issue you are deluding yourself.

right now its silly but somewhat manageable
With Clans everybody is going to play clans and ditch IS mechs and tech because of just how silly it is when a 50 ton mech can core your atlas before you scratch his paint. At least with weapon spread it gives IS tech and Mechs a fairer shake Vs Clan tech

Edited by Karr285, 12 April 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[Kurayami]

they should just limit hardpoints in size like in ll. as for deviation - i prefer this game to have as less random as possible - seriously just look at lrms\streaks. what they actually should fix is weapon convergence time - currently weapon convergence is instant.

also each and every weapon in bt is articulated to some degree, so converging them based on hardpoint valid angle would be a nice touch, but this will newer happen.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

boating isnt battletech huh? So the Catapult A-1 ONLY exists here and is TOTALLY not a battletech design at all?
Your reply is so asinine that unless youre trolling, you sir are the one who isnt a fan at all.

Yeah yeah. When I see a 6x lrm10 Catapult A1 in the books I let you know.

[TruePoindexter]

GODzillaGSPB, on 12 April 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Forget it. The majority wants boating. The majority wants absolute freedom in hardpoints. The majority are simply no BattleTech or MechWarrior fans whatsoever.

I love MW/Battletech and I'm fine with the hard point system. I want my guns to operate consistently - if anything the convergence system could use improvements as ballistics have a tendency to go awry. Random variance in shooting just takes skill out of the equation pushing things into the realm of chance and encourage people to use large single weapons fired consecutively effectively negating the entire thing.

It would also force people to abandon the usage of smaller weapons like Medium Lasers as firing them in sequence would be inferior to firing larger weapons.

If you do not see this you are not thinking through to the end point of the proposal.

[Karenai]

If we had a heat system anything like the TT, then there would be no problem. Because heat=aim is off. Heat=UI does not work. The more heat you have the worse it gets. Even more heat=chance to explode every round. Way too much heat=shutdown.
But that would be couter intuitive for about 90% of the playerbase. It would be fun though, anything over 50% heat should give wonky aim and non functioning UI degrading towards 100% to be almost unplayable.
Even double AC/20 builds would suffer. You could still boat, but it would not be so much over the top.

Edited by Karenai, 12 April 2013 - 12:18 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

TruePoindexter, on 12 April 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I love MW/Battletech and I'm fine with the hard point system. I want my guns to operate consistently - if anything the convergence system could use improvements as ballistics have a tendency to go awry. Random variance in shooting just takes skill out of the equation pushing things into the realm of chance and encourage people to use large single weapons fired consecutively effectively negating the entire thing.

It would also force people to abandon the usage of smaller weapons like Medium Lasers as firing them in sequence would be inferior to firing larger weapons.

If you do not see this you are not thinking through to the end point of the proposal.

It was actually meant as a general statement. I've seen so many suggestions and idea - some were good, some were bad. In this particular case I agree that this kinda "dice rolling" is a bad idea.

But the community so far said "meh" to most, if not all ideas. They want no change. No hardpoints limited in size. No heat penalty for boating. Nothing of that. Absolute liberty in the hardpoints. Like I said, we are already at 90% omni-mechs. The only difference is that there are definied hardpoints, but apart from that you can tinker with the mechs as if the Star League never left the IS.

And that is neither BattleTech, nor MechWarrior - in my opinion.

[Karr285]

How is firing 6 medium lasers even with a spread still a bad thing?

TruePoindexter, on 12 April 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

It would also force people to abandon the usage of smaller weapons like Medium Lasers as firing them in sequence would be inferior to firing larger weapons.

If you do not see this you are not thinking through to the end point of the proposal.

HOW explain how, so if I shoot 3 medium lasers at 270 meters and they all hit but 1 hit LT CT and RT then i wait 1 second (whatever the number would be) shoot 3 more doing the same spread again for giggles, so i did 10 damage to LT CT RT, you shot your large laser once doing 9 damage to my CT. Grats yup your 1 bigger weapon is better than his 6

but you notice what ddint happen? I didnt do 30 points of damage to 1 component.
Its risk/reward. the more you shoot the less the damage is focused. It also complements Missile weapons as they aren't focused either.

Edited by Karr285, 12 April 2013 - 12:25 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Karr285, on 12 April 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Dont bring up the clans they arnt in the game yet. That is funny and typical, It doesn't effect me it doesn't matter. Yup lets wait until its a problem before we fix it

Fixing a problem you don't have just introduces more problems and you haven't actually proven there is a problem to begin with.

Karr285, on 12 April 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Just saying weapon divergence resolves a lot of issues we have now and many more that are just around the corner and if you don't think its an issue you are deluding yourself.

Then name why it is an issue in a real world situation. Maybe shoot a video of it so we can all see what you are talking about. Currently though I fight those boats all the time with my own builds and I don't have this issue. Just watch some of my videos where these boats you are referring to get utterly destroyed.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

GODzillaGSPB, on 12 April 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Yeah yeah. When I see a 6x lrm10 Catapult A1 in the books I let you know.

So these arent boats in your mind?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longbow

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yeoman

http://www.sarna.net...er_%28Baboon%29

CPLT-A1 - The A1 variant of the Catapult was designed without back-up weapons. While it doubles the amount of LRM ammo carried and adds on two tons of armor, it is highly susceptible to close range attacks and has little defense if an enemy does manage to close in on it.

http://www.sarna.net..._%28OmniMech%29

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nova

Or are you one of those funny people who think the term "boat" means something other than what it does around here?

Cause all those are in books IVE owned

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 12 April 2013 - 12:24 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Karr285, on 12 April 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

How is firing 6 medium lasers even with a spread still a bad thing?

HOW explain how, so if I shoot 3 medium lasers at 270 meters and they all hit but 1 hit LT CT and RT then i wait 1 second (whatever the number would be) shoot 3 more doing the same spread again for giggles, so i did 10 damage to LT CT RT, you shot your large laser once doing 9 damage to my CT. Grats yup your 1 bigger weapon is better than his 6

Simply because weapon divergence spreads damage making it wasted firepower. This is why the LB10X is a poor weapon. In your example you would be better off firing Large Lasers in a chain to deal more precision damage faster. Your solution does not solve anything.

[Hawker]

Unlike most, I too agree that high alpha mechs are not in the spirt of the game just like 8LL Novacats were in MW4 poptarting people. It is only fun for those who utilize builds like that.

I personally think maybe we should not allow people to modify their mechs and just use stock variants. That would solve that issue. PGI will have to figure out someway of detering min-maxing because as it stands it really isn't about tactics at that point when a teams strategy is to alpha strike the opponents. To be clear, the alpha strike team only has to sit and wait for you to come to them, at which point your team will be killed quicker than you can kill them. You can do the math if you like, but especially in 12v12, a fully prepped alpha strike team will kill 4 of your mechs once they get in range. You might be able to kill two possibly assuming all 24 mechs are in range of each other.

Of course you can try to flank, or get in range, or whatever other cunning plan you think you can devise, except they will all have range and there isn't always cover. Even if you did sneak up, a smart team will have cover covered so once you break it, you die. Pretty simple really.

And that is the problem, while it is effective, it really isn't fun for everyone. Not saying it doesn't take skill and coordination, because it does, but it realy breaks the lore and spirit of Battletech. I know you all are going to hate this, but in the TT game, even if you did sport 6 PPCs on a Stalker, with the to-hit table, they would be spread all over the place and maybe two of them would hit the same spot. The odds of all six hitting one spot is pretty unlikely.

Taking it to MWO, well if they are all fired at the same time it is unlikely that they will hit more than two spots and usually all hit the same spot. There is the difference and the problem. Mech designs were designed with the to-hit table in mind. Simulators remove the to-hit table and therefore break the designs originally intended for the game. You really can't have both. Game design (board, card, sim, whatever) has to take into account all the detail to get a smooth playable and enjoyable game. Taking parts from one game and trying to fit into another format doesn't work too well.

The mech designs we have are based on the TT game, however the mechanics are a sim. That is the problem, the mechs are not designed for a sim. So you either have to redesign the mechs, or introduce a to-hit table that was designed with the mechs in mind. otherwise you will have an unbalanced game. It made sense in TT to have weapons that had multiple different weapons because of the way it was designed utilizing initiative and alternating movement. In MWO, min-maxing makes more sense because you adjust your distance in real time.

Anyway, you will either understand what I am saying or you won't. The problem in a nutshell is that the mechs were designed for to-hit tables and alternating movement based on initiative. The game we are playing uses only the mech designs but not the underlying game mechanics they were designed for, which makes for a poorly designed game overall.

Edited by Hawker, 12 April 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

TruePoindexter, on 12 April 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Simply because weapon divergence spreads damage making it wasted firepower. This is why the LB10X is a poor weapon. In your example you would be better off firing Large Lasers in a chain to deal more precision damage faster. Your solution does not solve anything.

Precisely. Get weapon drift when theyre fired together? OK ill just use chain fire. I get better heat for doing it that way too.

[Vhetra]

I don't understand the issue here. What needs to be "fixed" about high alphas? People throw lots of weapons on, fire them at once, then they overheat and become a punching bag for everyone else.


Where is the part needing to be "Fixed", because I see none. Before you accuse me of being one of the people who utilize such builds, I run a Dragon 1C most of the time.

[Brilig]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

yes, up with RNG!!
Lets roll virtual dice!

Nothing in my post has anything to do with RNG. I don't like RNG. That's why my fix suggestion didn't involve it.

Edit: Here's another quote from my post "That would keep the weapons from being pinpoint, without the random number generator frustration."

Edited by Brilig, 12 April 2013 - 12:39 AM.

[Karr285]

Vhetra, on 12 April 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

I don't understand the issue here. What needs to be "fixed" about high alphas? People throw lots of weapons on, fire them at once, then they overheat and become a punching bag for everyone else.


Where is the part needing to be "Fixed", because I see none. Before you accuse me of being one of the people who utilize such builds, I run a Dragon 1C most of the time.

Dont care if you played them or not. Playing them isn't the issue that they exist is.
Except when its played by people who know not to overheat, I play a 6LL stalker for laughs its easy rarely do i shut myself down unless I am going for a finishing shot. but again I can alpha 3 times dealing 162 damage in 9 seconds before i have to cool off thats either a Torso-ed atlas or a Bright red CT atlas.

Multiply that by the number of the same mech on the team.

Edited by Karr285, 12 April 2013 - 12:36 AM.