27 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

MadCat02, on 13 April 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

My 23 double heat sink stalker can fire 5 large lasers without overheating 7-8 times

yup. Same experiences for me.

A 25% reduction in the overall heatcap might not be a bad idea. Maybe SHS could give more heat headroom to encourage their viability somewhat.

[Kmieciu]

Zyllos, on 13 April 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Boating is not the issue.

Pin-point accuracy is the issue.

There are ways to remove all weapons hitting a single point without adding a RNG.

If you nerf the large laser, you will cripple all builds no matter how many LL they are using: 1 or 6. People will just boat another, more efficient weapon.

There are only two solutions: reduce the heat capacity for DHS and / or introduce heat penalties for massive heat spikes (automatic shutdown when you rapidly gain heat, even under 100% heat) That would fix boating PPCs and lasers, as well as 6ML Jenners and 9 ML Hunchbacks.

The other solution is a non-random weapon spread when alpha striking. Or maybe slowing down the weapon convergence, so that the multi-weapon build would have to aim for a second.

Edited by Kmieciu, 15 April 2013 - 01:35 AM.

[AndyHill]

Boating would be much less useful if alpha strikes were removed entirely. They have been an issue for MW gaming since MW2 and I think it's the biggest problem when translating the experience from TT to simulation. Boats will virtually always be the easiest and most effective approach as long as you're allowed to fire pinpoint alphas with unerring accuracy. Currently we are talking about specific 'mechs and weapons, but I think that's because there are relatively few boatable designs out there. With the clans it's going to be worse, since they practically all have a fair bit of boating potential.

[Zyllos]

Kmieciu, on 15 April 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

If you nerf the large laser, you will cripple all builds no matter how many LL they are using: 1 or 6. People will just boat another, more efficient weapon.

There are only two solutions: reduce the heat capacity for DHS and / or introduce heat penalties for massive heat spikes (automatic shutdown when you rapidly gain heat, even under 100% heat) That would fix boating PPCs and lasers, as well as 6ML Jenners and 9 ML Hunchbacks.

The other solution is a non-random weapon spread when alpha striking. Or maybe slowing down the weapon convergence, so that the multi-weapon build would have to aim for a second.

Not sure where I said about nerf'ing the LL in my post.

You might want to look at my suggestion on implementing non-convergence fire without a RNG:

Quote

Something I have begin to notice in MWO is that builds which can pin-point a lot of weaponry onto a single point for as long as possible than builds which can actually deal more damage but generally spreads the damage across a target.

This is part of why the phenomenon on why players generally only aim for the torsos. All their weapons can easily pin-point to a Left/Right Torso, which also destroys the arms in the process. Thus, there is little emphasis on destroying arms because you can just aim all your weaponry at the torso and destroy a mech or maim it by killing both a torso and arm.

I suggest three mechanic changes to fix this issue by placing more emphasis on arm mounted weaponry while removing some ability for all weapons to target a specific point, thus allowing more weapon fire to spread.

Suggestion One - Arm Actuators Given Meaning

This is a brand new mechanic added, which I believe PGI is planning on adding at some point in time. It is fairly straight forward implementation based on how existing mechs already behave and actually sticks to the TT actuator charts fairly well.

Shoulder actuator - Allow arm weaponry to converge on the Arm crosshair.
Upper Arm actuator - Allow vertical deviation of the Arm crosshair from the Torso crosshair.
Lower Arm actuator - Allow horizontal deviation of the Arm crosshair from the Torso crosshair.
Hand actuator - Allow hand related actions to be performed.

Suggestion Two - Torso Mounted Weaponry Do Not Converge

I personally think this is a big balancing factor to the game and part of the reason why nobody aims on arms and everyone can just place the crosshair on a single location and alpha strike, having all damage hit that single location.

I suggest making all torso mounted weaponry only aim straight ahead, aiming in relation to the cockpit view. Basically, a straight line is drawn down the center of the player's perspective. All torso mounted weaponry fires straight ahead from the mech in relation to this line. As a note, arm mounted weaponry will still only fire straight ahead, like torso weaponry. Just both arms point directly at the Arm crosshair.

A good example is the Atlas. The two Center Torso Laser ports will fire straight ahead, not converging on the location on which it is aimed at, but instead will be aimed at the Torso crosshair, landing in relation to the weapons mounted on the mech. So the two Lasers will land below the Torso crosshair, one directly below (because the cockpit is actually out of the left eye, thus the left Center Torso laser will be directly below you) and the other below and slightly to the right. The Ballistic and Missile hardpoints will be aiming to the below/left and below/right of the Torso crosshair.

What this does is removes the ability to pin-point all weaponry mounted on a mech (unless it is all in the arms) to hit a single location. Thus, placing a larger emphasis on arm mounted weaponry (with intact Shoulder actuators). While alpha strikes will still be around, they will not be the single location devastating that they are now, but instead be the wild firing of multiple systems to place as much damage on the target as fast as possible, not worrying about where on the mech it hits.

And with the greater emphasis on allowing convergence on arms only, players might start choosing to destroy an arm first before taking out the Left/Right Torso, especially on mechs which mount a large amount of weaponry on those arms.

Below is an example of what I am talking about:





TLDR

Add arm actuator functionality.
Make torso weaponry not converge.
All weapons fire straight ahead.

Edited by Zyllos, 15 April 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Nebelfeuer]

tbl, on 14 April 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Not so, you may be on to something.

In the state that MWO is in at the moment boating is almost encouraged. While under TT rules things like firing more than one gauss at a time is impossible/would destroy the mech and does not work so well in a FPS where everything is dynamic. The idea of a power system which can be overloaded by simultanious fire can work.

Say an XL300 engine can only provide enough power to fire 4 large lasers at once, firing any additional would weaken all of the lasers logarithimically. The more you fire at once the weaker they become, this encourages the use of Pulse lasers AND forces people to not sacrifice engine ratings for more weapons, thus discouraging high damage alpha strike one-shot kills. Tie heat to the logarithic curve and we have an anti-laserboating mechanism.

This would probably work.if done correctly.

So basically we have four intersting aproaches in this thread a)weapon non-convergence B)energy need for weapons c)heatmanagement revamp d) strikter limititation of hardpoints.

[RealityCheck]

Stalkers boating large lasers is a logical progression for them. Once pilots got over the 60 dmg alpha of 6 ppcs and once again began to optimise their builds they found a better solution in the large laser. Its logical because the weapon is more efficient to boat (in damage, heat, and tonnage), so no surprise they are now common place. Plus they got rid of the 90m minimum range.

Several good ideas in this thread, maybe mine will be one of them. My suggestion is to improve/add incendiary weaponry. Weapons like the flamer and inferno munitions are logical counters to high heat builds. The idea would be even better if the fear of shutdown wasn't the only threat heat based weaponry could pose. Its a start at least.

RealityCheck

[MasterErrant]

Deathlike, on 13 April 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

I hate to say this, but "working as intended".

They stopped tweaking LLs a while ago (whenever the last heat reduction to LLs were), so it stands to reason it is currently balanced as is. There's nothing to be done with the LL at this moment (what could you ask for really?) and I don't see people whining about LLs in general. They are fine. If you were to argue ERLL, I'd be with you, but LL is a staple on bigger mechs, so I don't see a problem that actually needs to be addressed.

5-6 LL Stalkers are somewhat common. 4 LL Flame (or K2)... 2LL Ravens (usually not 3Ls, but they all can use 2LL).

IS ERLLs andERPPC arent effecient they burn...you trade the range for massive heat. but if they're gonna buff the ERPPC they should match the ERLL to it's effeciency IMHO

[MasterErrant]

Zyllos, on 15 April 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Not sure where I said about nerf'ing the LL in my post.

You might want to look at my suggestion on implementing non-convergence fire without a RNG:

there is some movement in the torso ounts about 7'5 degrees in all directions. but this is the same convergence argument that is in dozens of places in the forums...no more than one weapon should be able to pinpoint and that at no longer range than "Long" the whole Damage/armour/crit system is based on that kind of weapon spread...if they wanth it otherwise they should have started from scratch and called it "SniperMech"