378 replies to this topic

[FunkyFritter]

That was a lot of words, but you didn't explain why reducing weapon accuracy would make the game more skill-intensive.

[Sheraf]

There should be a throw dice button appear, and time will stop temporarily when you fire your weapons. Maybe a HUD that displays hit chance on each parts of targeted mech.

[Royalewithcheese]

Targetloc, on 14 April 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

It's a combination of no synergy between different weapon types and no draw-backs to full-alpha 24/7.

I personally think we'd be hard-pressed to say that builds that stack PPCs have more synergy than builds that combine PPCs and Gauss Rifles - the more balanced levels of heat really do make a difference there. Similarly, back when the DDC's SRMs weren't gimped, those went really well with the AC/20 and lasers. A big part of why the DDC was (and probably still is) the top of the food chain in close-range combat was because it can outrange a brawlstalker, outlast a splatcat, outdamage an AC/20 boat, and consistently hit lights. A hypothetical DDC boat could do one or more of these things, but it wouldn't be able to do all of them.

[Noobzorz]

What the heck is this?

OP complains about light mechs cries about 6 PPC and 6 Laser stalkers, then proposes a change to make them even more powerful by shifting the game towards stationary mechs that do all of their damage in a single keypress? And even better, claims that making aiming less effective increases the skill in MWO?

A hard no to this.

[Trauglodyte]

I don't like what the OP is suggesting but everyone knows that convergence is a major issue. Torso mounted weapons converge automatically, which makes NO sense considering everything going on in the torsos, and arm mounted weapons converge near instantly. We go from a game that randomly put damage all over the target to a game where, no matter what, all of your damage is going exactly where you're pointing. That is less skill and more dumbed down mechanics.

[Thecure]

Hotthedd, on 14 April 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

Skill? SKILL? .....excuse me, but the insta-auto convergence is what allows you to hit your targets so readily, not "skill". Just so you know.

Insta-auto convergence??? Are we playing a diffrent game? Unless my 200ish ping make me need to let my crosshairs "settle" on the target.

[Royalewithcheese]

cyberFluke, on 14 April 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

snip

Let's put it this way: if you suggest that chess mechanics be replaced by poker-like mechanics, don't be surprised when that suggestion doesn't get a lot of support.

Edited by Viterbi, 14 April 2013 - 03:48 PM.

[cyberFluke]

For those complaining that lights will get shafted here: Movement speed isn't the only thing hat affects the crosshair, and YES I *am* trying to make you more inaccurate. If you can't hit the assault you're circling at 20m you need a [Redacted] eye test.

Edited by Egomane, 15 April 2013 - 12:42 AM.
Language

[Denno]

You still have to know WHEN to shoot, as is. Particularly in hotass energy boats, 3d poppers, some AC20 boats, etc.

[cyberFluke]

Royalewithcheese, on 14 April 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Let's put it this way: if you suggest that chess mechanics be replaced by poker-like mechanics, don't be surprised when that suggestion doesn't get a lot of support.

What we're trying to simulate here is the fact that there is no way in hell all those weapons should be pinpoint accurate to the same damn pinpoint, every time, no matter what the [Redacted] the mech is doing. This behavior is broken. It doesn't add any skill, FPS games of the effing nineties figured that out in a hurry for [Redacted] sakes.

Edited by Egomane, 15 April 2013 - 12:43 AM.
Language

[cyberFluke]

Denno, on 14 April 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

You still have to know WHEN to shoot, as is. Particularly in hotass energy boats, 3d poppers, some AC20 boats, etc.

Bollocks. Did you look where most of my game time was spent? In a freaking Awesome, I know [Redacted] Energy boats, aight? There is no skill in point and click, I taught my teachers to do that at primary school.

EDIT: Forgot to post Mech Stats, my bad. But still, look at the weapon usage, I know energy weapons.

Royalewithcheese, on 14 April 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Maybe you'd be happier playing a different game? Aiming determining what you hit is a core Mechwarrior mechanic. It's like playing Tribes and complaining about how fast everyone is going

[Redacted] The whole aiming thing as it stands is ***TOO EASY*** More needs to be done to make aiming ***MORE DIFFICULT***

Having more factors to manage to increase your mechs accuracy, increases the skill needed. How hard is that concept to grasp?

Edited by Egomane, 15 April 2013 - 12:44 AM.
Language/Insults

[FrostCollar]

cyberFluke, on 14 April 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

snip

This strikes at the very core of MW gameplay, and that is mobile combat and aiming at specific components.

If you want a game that includes what you suggest, you can try World of Tanks, which has severe penalties for accuracy when you are moving. However, one of the reasons I don't like that game is because at any given moment in combat I'm usually stationary because you can't shoot accurately any other way. I find that boring.

[Royalewithcheese]

cyberFluke, on 14 April 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

[Redacted] The whole aiming thing as it stands is ***TOO EASY*** More needs to be done to make aiming ***MORE DIFFICULT*** having more factors to manage to increase your mechs accuracy, increases the skill needed. How hard is that concept to grasp?

I understand that you think that, but you're really playing the wrong game if you want variable cone-of-fire. There are other games that implement that mechanic, but this one makes more TF2-like design decisions where some weapons hit where you aim and other weapons have fixed spread.

Edited by Egomane, 15 April 2013 - 12:45 AM.
Quote clean-up

[FrostCollar]

cyberFluke, on 14 April 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

snip

There's more to skill than shooting - maneuvering is a critical part of the game. Learning how to torso twist in the face of enemy fire, rotate shield components towards the enemy while your weapons are cycling (especially for mechs like the Centurion), and dodge around incoming fire are all crucial. Implementing some sort of cone of fire would make all these skills mostly irrelevant, as they would make accurate fire impossible. Why bother learning how to pilot with skill when you can't shoot accurately while doing so?

The obvious response would be "you would have to decide when to shoot or when to move," but that sounds to me as being very similar to deciding to pilot an assault and nothing else. Some mechs have more armor to prevent death, some have more speed/maneuverability. When the former supplements shooting and the later harms it, it doesn't seem likely that many light mechs would ever be piloted.

[cyberFluke]

FrostCollar, on 14 April 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

This strikes at the very core of MW gameplay, and that is mobile combat and aiming at specific components.

If you want a game that includes what you suggest, you can try World of Tanks, which has severe penalties for accuracy when you are moving. However, one of the reasons I don't like that game is because at any given moment in combat I'm usually stationary because you can't shoot accurately any other way. I find that boring.

What I want is more than a superficial total conversion with all the game mechanics of a multiplayer game of quake.

[cyberFluke]

FrostCollar, on 14 April 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

There's more to skill than shooting - maneuvering is a critical part of the game. Learning how to torso twist in the face of enemy fire, rotate shield components towards the enemy while your weapons are cycling (especially for mechs like the Centurion), and dodge around incoming fire are all crucial. Implementing some sort of cone of fire would make all these skills mostly irrelevant, as they would make accurate fire impossible. Why bother learning how to pilot with skill when you can't shoot accurately while doing so?

The obvious response would be "you would have to decide when to shoot or when to move," but that sounds to me as being very similar to deciding to pilot an assault and nothing else. Some mechs have more armor to prevent death, some have more speed/maneuverability. When the former supplements shooting and the later harms it, it doesn't seem likely that many light mechs would ever be piloted.

There is a lot more to maneuverability than simple velocity, as you suggest. You're way oversimplifying things here, as well as making out like I want anyone moving to be stupidly inaccurate. I simply want to stop MW:Os devolution into a game of circle strafing/run'n'gun with the biggest guns you can carry.

You are neglecting to mention the fact that it will make lights *harder* to hit by a margin, actually helping them as much as hindering. It should make fights take longer.

[Jonathan Paine]

Simpler solution. Chain fire retains absolute accuracy. Alpha strikes lose pinpoint damage as damage is spread out. Skilled players will still hit the same weakened spot. Less skilled players will get less lucky kills. Done.

[Dreamslave]

Cyberassassin, on 14 April 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

I agree with OP to some capacity.

The crosshairs should not be 100% dead-on for every scenario. I'm won't suggest any situations nor speculate on gameplay effects- that's for the Devs to figure out from forums and adjust appropriately.

OKay, couldn't help it. IMHO
If we apply some realistic mechanics, wouldn't a mech "shake" from large ballistic impulses or firing a JJ or just moving faster than a walk speed?

A solution to every problem:
Maybe the Devs could implement within the C3 trageting computer or other module equipment to counteract/reduce these effects.

[ArmageddonKnight]

@ OP
Sugesting making things more difficult will always cause an inferno of flames. This is 2013 ..the days of EZ mode have been here for ~13 years now, its unlikely to change anytime soon.

i feel u ..honest i do ...but this is the current state of games. Play them ..giggle to urself at the people who think their good ..and play a few old school games every now and then to keep ur sh*t sharp

This game will not get harder ..its just wont. .its F2P ..PGI will want as many players as possible so that means ..easy 'gameplay'.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 14 April 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[TOGSolid]

I had made a similar suggestion in the suggestion forum:
http://mwomercs.com/...understand-way/

Quote

One major issue in the game right now is the pintpoint nature of combat. People boat the biggest array of identical weapons possible in order to deliver the highest alpha they can to one area. Players have called for all sorts of crazy solutions to this from redoing how hardpoints work to giving stacking penalties for carrying too many of the same weapon. None of these really make the game better though and really won't solve anything.
However, there is one solution that can be implemented that will add a lot more tactical depth to the game while being a common mechanic in the general fps genre that is easy to understand. That solution is accuracy degredation. The faster you're moving, the faster you're torso twisting, and the hotter you're running the more inaccurate you are. Fully actuated arms suffer from it less while torso mounted weapons get the full effect for hopefully obvious reasons.
What does this accomplish? Now if you want to deliver a pinpoint shot you need to slow down or even come to a complete stop, allowing your mech to settle before you deliver your massive alpha. However, doing so will skyrocket your heat like it already does making your next shot more inaccurate unless you then wait for your heat to drop. It lets you play a very powerful mech, but one that has to play much more carefully because you will be more vulnerable and you will have to wait longer between shots to deliver your alpha. This has the benefit of making LRMs into a much more effective counter to pinpoint tactics. It also makes arm mounted weapons even more useful giving mechs that rely on them a bit more of a boost over the tankier mechs that rely more on torso mounted weapons. Hell, this could all even apply to jumpjets which will make poptarting instantly a thing of the past.
It's a solution to a growing problem that adds depth to the game without adding obscure rules. It emulates certain TT properties like heat penalties and the more random nature of shots without being absurdly annoying. Anyone who has ever played an FPS before will know what that expanding reticule means and will know what they need to do to get a better shot meaning the game will still be accessible to today's FPS crowd.

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I want light mech removed from the playing field. Only assault mech and some heavies should be viable.

You're arguing via an assumption. The different mechs could be given different degredation levels. High speed lights could experience much less degredation versus, say, an Awesome with a huge engine in it thus keeping the roles of certain mechs being run and gunners intact.

Quote

This game will not get harder ..its just wont. .its F2P ..PGI will want as maney players as possible so that means ..easy 'gameplay'.

That's the nice thing about this system. It's something that is already very common in shooters meaning new players will almost always know exactly what's going on. Only people totally green to shooters will not totally understand, but the visual feedback will be pretty obvious after a few shots so it's not hard to figure out.

Edited by TOGSolid, 14 April 2013 - 12:20 PM.