378 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

Oloccorb, on 15 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Ah, I can see that. However it seems to me, that you need all of these things to be good as it stand already. If the argument is that the portion of the population that does not have these skills, is merely taking advantage of a very simple aiming system, that allows them to score kills/hits with little to no "skill", then alright I get that. My only counter is that these plays, suck lol. If you get close enough, or start paying attention to them. There fairly easy to core and get rid of, and move on to harder to deal with targets.

As a side note, any game that is entirely too difficult for newer players to master(or just get the hang of), will have a hard time gaining any kind of success(new content). Which ultimately is my only beef with making the game "more" skill based then it already is. Thats keeping in mind that the game is still Beta, once we start getting into CW, I would imagine that PGI will start looking into mechanics like this, as it will create a well rounded game thats fairly easy to get into(as all FPS's are), but require a certain level of skill to get good at(unlike most FPS's).

A system like I proposed in a post at the bottom of page 11 would actually help many newbies. Currently a 6 PPC Stalker is one of the hardest hitting mechs in the game and he can blast you with great accuracy from quite a distance while he is closing on you and his shots are doing more and more damage as he approaches his weapon's optimal range. This is the type of mech played by someone who understands the meta and has spend a significant amount of time and/or money to purchase and kit out. The same could be said of a CTF 3D that is set up to jump snipe. Increasing the piloting skill and situational awareness required to use these mechs is a good thing because right now they are very difficult to counter and that can be really frustrating for new players.

A change like I suggest would require that STK to stop moving in order to make those long shots and the CTF would have to have split second timing to fire at the apex of his jump when his accuracy is at its highest. That opens up new opportunities to counter these sniper builds by making them a little easier to flank from cover.

Most pilots who are playing at a high enough level to be using those types of mechs will adapt very quickly to such a change and their builds will still be very viable just as they should be, but it will give folks in a trial mech or maybe those who are not so optimized in their build just a bit more of an edge. I think that would ultimately make the game more fun for both players.

[Alienfreak]

Lostdragon, on 15 April 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

A system like I proposed in a post at the bottom of page 11 would actually help many newbies. Currently a 6 PPC Stalker is one of the hardest hitting mechs in the game and he can blast you with great accuracy from quite a distance while he is closing on you and his shots are doing more and more damage as he approaches his weapon's optimal range. This is the type of mech played by someone who understands the meta and has spend a significant amount of time and/or money to purchase and kit out. The same could be said of a CTF 3D that is set up to jump snipe. Increasing the piloting skill and situational awareness required to use these mechs is a good thing because right now they are very difficult to counter and that can be really frustrating for new players.

A change like I suggest would require that STK to stop moving in order to make those long shots and the CTF would have to have split second timing to fire at the apex of his jump when his accuracy is at its highest. That opens up new opportunities to counter these sniper builds by making them a little easier to flank from cover.

Most pilots who are playing at a high enough level to be using those types of mechs will adapt very quickly to such a change and their builds will still be very viable just as they should be, but it will give folks in a trial mech or maybe those who are not so optimized in their build just a bit more of an edge. I think that would ultimately make the game more fun for both players.

This is the main point. All those uber optimized builds obliberating other full armor mechs in 3.5 seconds (fire, 3 seconds recharge, fire) are not really making noobs stay tuned.
And due to the pinpoint accuracy and ease of use there is basically no chance of survival for any newer player against such a thing.

[Malora Sidewinder]

Alienfreak, on 15 April 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

Oh so you are one of those that can hit a 3cm big target on their screen which moves with less than 5°/s with instant hit or almost instant hit weapons?

Have you ever tried sniping in ACE2 with wind deflection, (almost) proper bullet drop and a target that is not 18 meters high and only 500 meters way? Not to mention that your bullet will not be there in 0.5 seconds.

But OH RIGHT! Measuring wind (which is changing, so its RANDOM AND UNSKILL), adjusting your aim and having to know when you can hit the enemy because of his movement patterns/situational awarness?
It just screams UNSKILL BECAUSE OF RANDOM. It is so much harder to hit a house sized target from 800 meters with almost no bulletdrop, instanthit weapons or almost instanthit weapons.

Knowing your good weapon fighting distance incorporating speed of you and the enemy plus probably even having to fire in bursts and not smashing all your 2 mouse buttons for your Laser Weapongroups permanently is unskill for sure.

You guys are just afraid that the ARCADE GAMEPLAY of this mech "simulator" will go away and you cannot 6LL or 4PPC some guy from 800 meters pin point in his side torso while he is moving full speed as are you. Because you would have to think about how fast to move, how to properly manage your heat and to know how your weapon reacts.

actually with the stats he just posted, he's the only person i've ever seen with better accuracy than me. he's quite a pilot.

[Noobzorz]

Bottom line:

Alpha warrior is far from ideal.

OPs suggestion is the wrong way to fix it (i.e. it ***** up the game, and the tradeoff is that it makes alphawarrior worse, not better).

[0I0]

Elo solves some of the issues we are talking about altering. On the other hand, I'm not adverse to a little more randomness to make the game interesting

[cyberFluke]

MustrumRidcully, on 15 April 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

I do not entirely agree.
1) Randomization can be controlled and accounted for. If you know that the randomizaiton is bad when you're running and low if you're standing, slow down for shooting. Finding out when ti'S better to stand still to get a good shot and when it'S better to keep moving can be a skill.
2) If the effect was not random, but predictable (for example, the crosshair moving up and down while you move), then skill can account for the effect and compensate it. It's just a skill like leading targets with ballistics.

I am not a big fan of pure randomized approach, but I have no problem of a predictable deviation like the crosshair moving up and down while moving.

Again, some common sense prevailing through the storm of inane trolling. {REDACTED}

Edited by Dakkath, 15 April 2013 - 07:34 PM.
Unconstrutive stuff removed.

[cyberFluke]

Fut, on 15 April 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

I think the point is that it'd take more than just a steady hand to be successful.
You'd have to be aware of everything going on - your movement, the terrain you're on, your current heat levels, whatever else people are suggesting here.

In the end, you'd still need that steady hand to make the shot land - but you'd also need to use your head a lot more than currently needed.

With something like this is play, people with good hands will be decent, people with good awareness/knowledge will be decent; but somebody with good knowledge/awareness and a steady hand - they'll be deadly..

Got it, right on the button.

I'm sick and tired of these fools that think they're leet because they can use a mouse. We *ALL* learned to do that years ago, and it's ***NOT*** difficult. You're not some tremendous shot, you're the same as the rest, the game is just too easy as it stands.

[3rdworld]

Coming soon to mechwarrior online

[Vassago Rain]

3rdworld, on 15 April 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Coming soon to mechwarrior online

It's in already. 259358863550 MC for scrubking upgrade. GRAB DEAL yours today!

Edited by Vassago Rain, 15 April 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Reiterating this one because it's buried on page 4 and the discussion has come full circle to where it is relevant again.

TruePoindexter, on 14 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

First off - why is having good aim not considered skillful? It's easy to land shots on slow or still targets in this game. Hitting a reasonably fast moving target (64.8kph+) at 800m with PPCs/Gauss takes practice in understanding the weapon's projectile velocity, the direction of travel of the target, the velocity of the target, anticipating any maneuvers the target will make, compensating for your own movement, and finally compensating for the parallax error due to your weapons not firing from your camera. To me that is the very definition of skill with regards to shooting. Why is this considered a bad thing?

Moving on there are other techniques that skilled players employ and novice players do not past just shooting.

• A skilled player understands the layout of the map. They know where the typical enemy movements will be and how to counter them. They know where the choke points are and where the good vantage points are. This lets them stay in the optimal positions and avoid vulnerable ones.
  
• Skilled players understand the games damage model and exploit it by distributing damage across their mechs. They survive under tremendous levels of firepower where novices fold under the fire of just a single mech.
  
• Skilled players coordinate with their team understanding how focused fire and attacks from multiple vectors are tremendously powerful in combat. They use this to overwhelm even the strongest opponents quickly with little to no reprisal.
  
• Skilled players understand the advantages and disadvantages of their own mech and work to play towards their strengths while taking every possible measure to avoid their own weaknesses.

Monkeying with the shooting aspects of the game does nothing to address these other parts still leaving a skilled player with a tremendous advantage over the novice. All you would do is making long range precision fire more difficult which if you just had an understanding of those other aspects of play would not be an issue.

[TruePoindexter]

Adding some other relevant content. Here Extra Credits breaks down the concept of balancing a game for skill which is part of what our current discussion is about:

Here's a good discussion about ELO on the surface but really it's about the psychology of how players do not focus on improving correctly:

[Nightcrept]

Alienfreak, on 15 April 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Both are actually connected to the same mech.

Have you seen the shake a 120mm gives a M1A1? http://youtu.be/ZhF6TjnIjFc?t=7m9s
It weights roughly the same as a Cata or Jager (both are 3.9 or so tons heavier). It is on tracks and not on legs.
And now tell me that your "gyro" is perfectly offsetting everything.


GYRO seems to be the favorite word of many people here...

Considering the amount gyros and other equipment currently offset things I don't see why in a thousand years the offset will not be even greater. Do you?
Have we reached the pinnacle of gun tracking technology?
I think not.

cyberFluke, on 15 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Again, some common sense prevailing through the storm of inane trolling. Thanks again to all the clueless, shortsighted trolls for keeping my post alive BTW. <3

Trolls do not give actual well thought out opinions. Trolls ask for opinions and then insult those who answer.

[von Pilsner]

3rdworld, on 15 April 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Coming soon to mechwarrior online

[Nightcrept]

cyberFluke, on 15 April 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Got it, right on the button.

I'm sick and tired of these fools that think they're leet because they can use a mouse. We *ALL* learned to do that years ago, and it's ***NOT*** difficult. You're not some tremendous shot, you're the same as the rest, the game is just too easy as it stands.

Everyone hates boating. We are simply disagreeing with your idea to fix it.

[cyberFluke]

What don't you fools get? You're not skilled because you can point a cursor slightly in front of a moving target. It takes negligible skill to do something we all train to do all day when at our PC, using a mouse.


All I want is to add more to "aiming" than pointing a frigging mouse. I could point a mouse at age 5+, are you *that* far behind that you're *proud* of your ability to point and click? Go have a word with yourself then come back and join the grown ups in discussion, yeah?

[von Pilsner]

cyberFluke, on 15 April 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

What don't you fools get? You're not skilled because you can point a cursor slightly in front of a moving target. It takes negligible skill to do something we all train to do all day when at our PC, using a mouse.


All I want is to add more to "aiming" than pointing a frigging mouse. I could point a mouse at age 5+, are you *that* far behind that you're *proud* of your ability to point and click? Go have a word with yourself then come back and join the grown ups in discussion, yeah?

Insulting everyone who disagrees with you does not lead to a grown up discussion.

Just sayin'...

[cyberFluke]

von Pilsner, on 15 April 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Insulting everyone who disagrees with you does not lead to a grown up discussion.

Just sayin'...

I know man, but some people in here are seemingly trying to prove their short sighted foolishness... What can I do?

When I try and have a reasonable discussion about what could be done to add more than a very simplistic point and click shooter and people post pictures of dice rolls in my cockpit, what can I do?

Edited by cyberFluke, 15 April 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[von Pilsner]

I think many are against cone of fire and crosshair sizing because of it's association with modern FPS games.

Some are afraid the game will change in a way that caps skill and limits their ability to pwn.

Some don't like the idea...

I would try anything, but PGI makes this game feel like it's not beta.. Like if PGI makes the effort to create something it's going into the game even if it is a bad idea... So perhaps I fear if we test the idea then no matter what it's gonna be part of the game (for better or worse).

[Nightcrept]

Except that they don't like your idea and figure out what you can build a consensus about.

There's been a bunch of good ideas thrown around.

Even if most of us don't like the expanding crosshairs idea.

[3rdworld]

cyberFluke, on 15 April 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

I know man, but some people in here are seemingly trying to prove their short sighted foolishness... What can I do?

When I try and have a reasonable discussion about what could be done to add more than a very simplistic point and click shooter and people post pictures of dice rolls in my cockpit, what can I do?

Assume both are headshots. Explain how the one on the right takes more "skill" than the one on the left.