64 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Loler skates, on 14 April 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

I think your time line forgets that they had their heat output dropped...

but what ever floats the obviously biased picture of the community you want to float.



I sure do love attacking straw men, it's great because they never fight back!

The PPC boating shenanigans pre-dated the heat change quite a bit. In fact they held off a few weeks on buffing the PPC because people were starting to use and use it well. The popularity of the PPC coincides with the release of the Stalker.

[ShadowbaneX]

Willie Sauerland, on 14 April 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Does the words "CHAIN FIRE" mean anything to you? I don't need 6 PPCs to kill your K2from behind...

Should be 'do the words chain fire' or 'does the word chain-fire'. Yes, it does. Given the very fast recycle rate on PPCs however, it also seems to have another word associated with it: "wasteful".

And yes, less would suffice for taking out my K2 from behind. Given that 90% of the damage I take seems to hit my Front CT however, I put a bit of extra armour there. Half-ton across all back torso sections seems to have done me pretty well so far.

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 14 April 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

PPCs weren't boated back in the day, not because there weren't any mechs that could do it (AWS-8Q could as could the Atlas), because they originally had a velocity of 900m/s and the heat values were prohibitive due to inter-engine DHSs still being at 1.4 like the external engine DHSs. You couldn't vent the heat efficiently enough to even use 3 of them with any level of consistency and, because of the speed, you couldn't hit anything beyond 500m because of the slow velocity plus the impact of the netcode issues. Now we've got a more heat efficient PPC and no netcode problems with several mechs that can carry them in surplus on top of the benefit of Coolant Flush making them even more efficient. Add to that the complete lack of any sort of heat penalties or anti-boating restrictions and you've got the situation that we're in.

[Mystere]

Instead of people toughening themselves and striving to get better, here they are again crying instead.

And to the OP, congratulations on a good job smoking these people out.

[Denno]

Like folks said, the Stalker and the much needed unnerfing made them viable. People tried em with Awesomes, and it mighta worked except for that whole lolGIAGANTICct thing.

[Trauglodyte]

Denno, on 14 April 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Like folks said, the Stalker and the much needed unnerfing made them viable. People tried em with Awesomes, and it mighta worked except for that whole lolGIAGANTICct thing.

It wasn't even the massive CT. People are just bad and don't know how to drive the poor Awesome - it isn't a brawler so stop pretending it is a lighter faster Atlas. Anyway, to the point, back when PPCs were bad, they moved slow and were hot. Taking the Awesome 9M as an example, it comes stock with 20 DHSs and 3 ER PPCs. At the time it was introduced, ER PPCs built 13 heat every time that they were fired or 39 heat for every alpha. At that same time, all DHSs were 1.4 for heat dissipation which meant that the 9M would cool 20 x 1.4/10 or 2.8 heat every second. It would take 13.9 seconds and change to cool off that alpha and that same alpha would be the Awesome at 78% of max heat capacity (30 + 2x10). So yes, PPCs were really bad back then but it had less to do with the weapon and more to do with the surrounding mechanics that limited the use that we see today. The Stalker just happens to be the best heavy energy weapon boater in game because its hard points are high up, its torso is rather sleek, it takes a lot of punishment, and cooling and heat levels were adjusted.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 14 April 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Teralitha, on 14 April 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

But the truth is, the PPC has always been a range weapon, and always done 10 damage.

People never liked the 90meter minimum range and I think thats the main reason why they thought it was garbage.

also because brawling was a viable tactic because srms and short range weapons were also viable, as we had tiny maps.
Now, sniper builds are all too common, larger maps, etc. Now that the engagement range is so much farther out, their weakness isnt as easily exploited. The LRM nerf goes into this as well as we dont have to worry about staying to cover to engage.

Roadbeer, on 14 April 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Is this really something that needs to be addressed now?

I can think of 99 things that need to be fixed or implemented before "better heat penalties" come on my radar.

got 99 things to fix an this aint one

[Victor Morson]

PPCs were trash before the projectile velocity was increased so that they're remotely accurate.

There's nothing else to say to the OP aside from that. He misunderstood why they got better.

[TheSteelRhino]

Actually the ppc didnt change other than slight heat tweak and a velocity change if i recall?

NETCODE did also Improving hit detection.

Its an interaction of multiple components

Edited by Rhinehardt Ritter, 14 April 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[Smk]

Teralitha, on 14 April 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

But the truth is, the PPC has always been a range weapon, and always done 10 damage.

People never liked the 90meter minimum range and I think thats the main reason why they thought it was garbage.

But now, with DHS, they use ERPPC instead and say the PPC is good now, when really it never changed.


I was using PPCs/ERPPC before DHS were added, and I did very well with them. I personally dont see any difference from then to now except you can shoot more often, which has nothing to do with the weapon itself.

It WAS garbage. Its projectile speed was completely awful. It's like a completely different weapon now. So yes, it has changed.

[MustrumRidcully]

Teralitha, on 14 April 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

But the truth is, the PPC has always been a range weapon, and always done 10 damage.

People never liked the 90meter minimum range and I think thats the main reason why they thought it was garbage.

But now, with DHS, they use ERPPC instead and say the PPC is good now, when really it never changed.


I was using PPCs/ERPPC before DHS were added, and I did very well with them. I personally dont see any difference from then to now except you can shoot more often, which has nothing to do with the weapon itself.

No, the minimum range was not a big concern.
The problem in MW:O was always heat. Only Double Heat Sinks and the heat reductions made PPC competitive with alternate weapons. If we didn't have those, we would be back to Dual Gauss Rifle as best long range alpha striker, and we wouldn't see Hexa PPCs on the battlefield. They just would be too heat inefficient. Overheating every salvo and needing 20 seconds or so to recover would just not work.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The PPC was bad until they reduced the heat pretty drastically. Now it's competitive. Add in the ECM disable and it's actually quite an attractive option. Plus, the rather extreme boost to projectile speed helped a goodly bit.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 14 April 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[LordBraxton]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 April 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

also because brawling was a viable tactic because srms and short range weapons were also viable, as we had tiny maps.
Now, sniper builds are all too common, larger maps, etc. Now that the engagement range is so much farther out, their weakness isnt as easily exploited. The LRM nerf goes into this as well as we dont have to worry about staying to cover to engage.



got 99 things to fix an this aint one

Im beginning to realize every problem I have with MWO's meta changes come from SRM's getting the nerf stick for no reason.

[Iron Frost]

Teralitha, on 14 April 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

I was using PPCs/ERPPC before DHS were added, and I did very well with them. I personally dont see any difference from then to now except you can shoot more often, which has nothing to do with the weapon itself.

lol, what?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

PPC's heat issues were limiting it, ontop of that, now that PPC's have the EMP vs ECM, this is the other reason that PPC's are popular, to disrupt ECM which is also still the Meta.

It counter's the meta, thus becomes the meta.

[aniviron]

Teralitha, on 14 April 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

But the truth is, the PPC has always been a range weapon, and always done 10 damage.

People never liked the 90meter minimum range and I think thats the main reason why they thought it was garbage.

But now, with DHS, they use ERPPC instead and say the PPC is good now, when really it never changed.


I was using PPCs/ERPPC before DHS were added, and I did very well with them. I personally dont see any difference from then to now except you can shoot more often, which has nothing to do with the weapon itself.

I ran a 3xPPC AWS-8Q with DHS before the heat patch, and PPCs were definitely garbage. I remember this pretty vividly. For all the bellyaching that 6xPPC stalkers are bringing to these forums, it is worth it to have a viable weapon again. (Personally, I suggest taking advantage of the glaring flaws that the 6xPPC stalker has...) Time was I could go a dozen matches and not see a single PPC- they really were that bad.

The other thing that changed wasn't PPCs, but the maps. With Tourmaline and Alpine making up about half of all drops now, it is much more important to have weapons that can hit at range, which is very different from the brawler-centric metagame that was dominant when PPCs still had insane heat.

[Vassago Rain]

LordBraxton, on 14 April 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Im beginning to realize every problem I have with MWO's meta changes come from SRM's getting the nerf stick for no reason.

You got that right.

[Forestal]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 April 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

also because brawling was a viable tactic because srms and short range weapons were also viable, as we had tiny maps.
Now, sniper builds are all too common, larger maps, etc. Now that the engagement range is so much farther out, their weakness isnt as easily exploited. The LRM nerf goes into this as well as we dont have to worry about staying to cover to engage.

Whaa...at? You mean that the ECM cover countered the LRM support-fire, which would have countered the PPC sniping, which would have countered the ECM cover, which...?

Looks like PGI needs to learn to play "rock, scissors, papers" before designing games...

Edited by Forestal, 14 April 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

aniviron, on 14 April 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

I ran a 3xPPC AWS-8Q with DHS before the heat patch, and PPCs were definitely garbage. I remember this pretty vividly. For all the bellyaching that 6xPPC stalkers are bringing to these forums, it is worth it to have a viable weapon again. (Personally, I suggest taking advantage of the glaring flaws that the 6xPPC stalker has...) Time was I could go a dozen matches and not see a single PPC- they really were that bad.

Been running the AWS-8Q since closed beta. In CB, they were so bad I replaced them with Large Lasers and used the extra 10 tons for heatsinks.

Now that the PPC is the defacto energy sniper again, I can deal with people boating them. The stock AWS-8Q boats them.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

LordBraxton, on 14 April 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Im beginning to realize every problem I have with MWO's meta changes come from SRM's getting the nerf stick for no reason.

It wasnt "no reason" it was as said in the first part of my sig

Forestal, on 14 April 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Whaa...at? You mean that the ECM cover countered the LRM support-fire

no, I mean the nerf that made them as powerful as thrown marshmellows did that