71 replies to this topic

[Writer]

The fairest solution is for mechs nearing critical capacity to suffer slightly slower engine top speed & rate of acceleration, and reduced heat diffusion until heat drops to nominal levels.

It punishes players for running too hot without crippling their mechs.

[Corvus Antaka]

I think if penalties where added like loss of speed/ammo explosions/or my preferation blurry/steamy vision in cockpit/windows fogging/whatever, then it would be acceptable to maintain the current heatcap.

however, without trying to change the topic too much I Also believe part of this goes back to the issues with internal vs external HS. my 17-20DHS variants with coolant flush vs my 10-13 DHS variants with coolant flush I see the performance favouring the mechs with less HS everytime because I get more firepower and by the time im out of heat headroom everything is dead anyway - either my teams or the enemies. there remains little justification for building more heat balanced mechs, and this remains a function of low dissapation to some degree plus the addition of coolant.

worth considering as you look into these issues.

[The Strange]

Death Storm, on 18 April 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

No if you add this heat plan you are going to add an even bigger headache to the game because most mechs are laser and balistic/LRM based fighters and they will run hot there is no escaping that fact. You add this heat plan your just going to complicate thing and at worst weaken the amount of weapons and fire power ratio you can bring to bare in your Mech also Gauss ammo has 90% chance of exploding you add this idea you might as well stop playing mechwarrior, leave heat inefficiency alone its fine the way it is.

That is the whole idea. Most Mechs I see today are Laser and PPC based boats, not fighters. It's alpha, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown. What's wrong with encouraging players to actually think about something other then "where is my alpha strike button". Maybe they start to chain fire those PPCs instead.

I would like to see more of what I remember from MW3, where if you performed an alpha strike, and your heat sinks couldn't take the load, you just blew up right then and there. "Reactor Meltdown"

[Hotthedd]

Death Storm, on 18 April 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

No if you add this heat plan you are going to add an even bigger headache to the game because most mechs are laser and balistic/LRM based fighters and they will run hot there is no escaping that fact. You add this heat plan your just going to complicate thing and at worst weaken the amount of weapons and fire power ratio you can bring to bare in your Mech also Gauss ammo has 90% chance of exploding you add this idea you might as well stop playing mechwarrior, leave heat inefficiency alone its fine the way it is.

Congratulations for both missing the point entirely while simultaneously writing WHY heat penalties SHOULD be in place. Very difficult to do, bravo!

[buckfast]

personaly i think all of these are wrong what you should get in my oppinion is your hud to start flickering and ur cursor disapear for like 0.05 of a sec constantly for a few secs ect and u can still play as norm but its bludy annoying

but a possibility of the weapons or your heatsinks exploding could be good if you go way to far over like

upto 105% ur all good 110% screen starts to flicker and it starts to become a pain 115% u get warnings saying heat sinks overload 120% ur heatsinks and weapons starts popping off somthing like this

[Grey Death Storm]

Nihtgenga, on 18 April 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Why the whining? The excessive firepower (or their consequences, the possibility of near-to-insta-kills) made the devs double internal HPs and nerf the non-engine DHS effciency -30% to reduce it...
I'd prefer to bring in heat management as factor, but roll back the doubled internal HPs and reduced DHS effect in exchange. The only big difference would be that for a win, a pilot would need to be less gung-ho on the trigger, but bring to bear the weaponry at his disposal to bear with a little more thought.

If you do not want to play anything more complicated than pacman, perhaps you should stick with that. The Battletech/Mechwarrior universe is complex, so naturally games based on it should be, too. Else nobody would have a reason to specificly play this game instead of Quake-/UT-style FPS.

Hey first of:

I been in Mechwarrior for a long time lot longer than when Mech online came to play, secondly there called balancing a game then there is going over the top, adding more silly Ideas to heat efficiency is just going to cause even bigger problems where life and death come into it. Yes I like challenging games strategically and I carefully decided what weapons to put in a battle mech to bring balance to weapon firing.

Perhaps you should go back to playing Pac Man, as you don't seem to grasp the impact that this heat efficiency idea will have in the game with exploding ammunition, slowing down, loss targeting accuracy. Gee this is a brilliant Idea specially when you are out numbered by the enemy by 2 -3 mechs and you have wait for heat meter to go down at same time ammunition exploding possibly blowing side mech cockpit off, loss target accuracy that's really going to help in a desperate situation and slowing down you might as well paint a massive bulls eye on your Mech or just shoot your self in the head be done with it.

Is this starting make scene, are you starting to grasp the Idea with a more clearer picture of the heat plan you are proposing, the heat efficiency idea the developers have created are fine they should also add some more flashing effects and screen flicker when extreme over heating occurs

PS the whole idea of your Mech shutting down when over heating is to prevent you from damaging or blowing your mech up.

Edited by Death Storm, 19 April 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Grey Death Storm]

Hotthedd, on 19 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Congratulations for both missing the point entirely while simultaneously writing WHY heat penalties SHOULD be in place. Very difficult to do, bravo!

Congratulations for completely missing the point of what my paragraph was trying to make and yes you have proved point that maybe its in the best interest that the developer should be in charge of balancing the game and not players who can not understand what term Balancing the game Means !!! BRAVO

I try to be respectable toward other people I try not to upset anyone else, so there is no need for sarcastic behaviour

Call sign The Strange I mean no disrespect but regarding your topic "That is the whole idea. Most Mechs I see today are Laser and PPC based boats, not fighters. It's alpha, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown. What's wrong with encouraging players to actually think about something other then "where is my alpha strike button". Maybe they start to chain fire those PPCs instead."

anyone silly enough over load there mech with to many PPC well the fact that they shut down a lot is due to poor heat management and well if they wish to be a a sitting target then that there problem and punishment ( If you get in close combat with these guys the don't have a chance). altering the Heat efficiency to do the above Idea in this thread is trying change the game because certain people cant deal with the fact that someone used there brain about what weapons work for them best in the battle that's whole idea loading out your mech and is not balancing a game its altering it so that person is forced rethink there strategy because other player cant deal with that type problem (that called Tactics), again I mean no disrespect

Edited by Death Storm, 19 April 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[The Strange]

Death Storm, on 19 April 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Congratulations from completely missing the point of what my paragraph was trying to make and yes you have proved point that maybe its in the best interest that the developer should be in charge of balancing the game and not players who can not understand what term Balancing the game Means !!! BRAVO

I try to be respectable toward other people I try not to upset anyone else, so there is no need for sarcastic behaviour

Call sign The Strange I mean no disrespect but regarding your topic "That is the whole idea. Most Mechs I see today are Laser and PPC based boats, not fighters. It's alpha, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown. What's wrong with encouraging players to actually think about something other then "where is my alpha strike button". Maybe they start to chain fire those PPCs instead."

anyone silly enough over load there mech with to many PPC well the fact that they shut down a lot is due to poor heat management and well if they wish to be a a sitting target then that there problem and punishment ( If you get in close combat with these guys the don't have a chance). altering the Heat efficiency to do the above Idea in this thread is trying change the game because certain people cant deal with the fact that someone used there brain about what weapons work for them best in the battle that's whole idea loading out your mech and is not balancing a game its altering it so that person is forced rethink there strategy because other player cant deal with that type problem (that called Tactics), again I mean no disrespect

You think that loading massive amounts of energy weapons into a Mech, and alpha striking till shutdown, constantly, is using their brain and being tactical? That is such a noob "tactic" and requires no brain power what-so-ever. Real tactics would include diversions, flanking, ambush, etc. Not alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown. Where is the brain or tactics in that? Please, explain it to me as I am obviously missing something integral to your mindset.

Or are you saying that it requires a superior intellect and advanced tactical knowledge to figure out that since there are no significant heat penalties in this game at all, that one can get away with a 60 point alpha strike that in other MW games would have blown the engine sky high?

On a side note, it was actually pretty funny the other night, as I was spectating a match where two Mechs were face to face and both of them would alpha and shutdown, then alpha and shutdown, repeatedly. Standing maybe 75m apart from each other. I was waiting for one of them to override and explode, but nope. I guess the tactic there was to hope the other guy exceeded the heat scale by more then you did, causing him to take longer to reboot or something. Real "tactical" battle that was.

[Grey Death Storm]

The Strange, on 19 April 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

You think that loading massive amounts of energy weapons into a Mech, and alpha striking till shutdown, constantly, is using their brain and being tactical? That is such a noob "tactic" and requires no brain power what-so-ever. Real tactics would include diversions, flanking, ambush, etc. Not alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown. Where is the brain or tactics in that? Please, explain it to me as I am obviously missing something integral to your mindset.

Or are you saying that it requires a superior intellect and advanced tactical knowledge to figure out that since there are no significant heat penalties in this game at all, that one can get away with a 60 point alpha strike that in other MW games would have blown the engine sky high?

On a side note, it was actually pretty funny the other night, as I was spectating a match where two Mechs were face to face and both of them would alpha and shutdown, then alpha and shutdown, repeatedly. Standing maybe 75m apart from each other. I was waiting for one of them to override and explode, but nope. I guess the tactic there was to hope the other guy exceeded the heat scale by more then you did, causing him to take longer to reboot or something. Real "tactical" battle that was.

No you are trying put words in to my mouth, I said (anyone silly enough over load there mech with to many i.e. 6 PPC will lead to shutdown a lot, this is due to poor heat management, l if they wish to be a sitting target then that there problem and punishment and again I SAID NOTHING ABOUT ALPHA STRIKING. AND NO I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT MASSIVE AMOUNT ENERGY WEAPONS IN MECH LOAD OUTS so please get you facts correct before you decide to make any argument. And NO alpha striking is not using your brain its your shortest way to an early grave.

You are CORRECT ( Real tactics would include diversions, flanking, ambush)

Regarding your second Paragraph I did not make any statement regarding superior intellect or 60 point alpha strikes here this is what I said (anyone silly enough overload there mech with to many i.e. 6 PPC well the fact that they shutdown a lot is due to poor heat management and well if they wish to be a a sitting target then that there problem and punishment ( If you get in close combat with these guys the don't have a chance) and to answer last line this is not previous Mech Warrior titles.

Understand there needs to be balance in the Game if you implemented the Heat inefficiency plan you guys are talking about the game will be come unbalanced - as exploding ammunition can destroy certain parts of your mech and weapons !!!


Your last Paragraph I get most of what you are talking about however you said (I was waiting for one of them to override and explode, but nope. I guess the tactic there was to hope the other guy exceeded the heat scale by more then you did) what are you talking about ?.

I did not make any statements that you are trying to say I did. I completely disagree with your Heat plan method, have you any idea what kind problems to game balance and survival that plan would have have you even considered what problems that would have(ALL MECHS WILL OVER HEAT THERE IS NO ESCAPING THAT FACT) that plan you were thinking of putting out would cause more problems.

Edited by Death Storm, 19 April 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[The Strange]

Death Storm, on 19 April 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

No you are trying put words in to my mouth, I said (anyone silly enough over load there mech with to many i.e. 6 PPC will lead to shutdown a lot, this is due to poor heat management, l if they wish to be a sitting target then that there problem and punishment and again I SAID NOTHING ABOUT ALPHA STRIKING. AND NO I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT MASSIVE AMOUNT ENERGY WEAPONS IN MECH LOAD OUTS so please get you facts correct before you decide to make any argument. And NO alpha striking is not using your brain its your shortest way to an early grave.

You are CORRECT ( Real tactics would include diversions, flanking, ambush)

Regarding your second Paragraph I did not make any statement regarding superior intellect or 60 point alpha strikes here this is what I said (anyone silly enough overload there mech with to many i.e. 6 PPC well the fact that they shutdown a lot is due to poor heat management and well if they wish to be a a sitting target then that there problem and punishment ( If you get in close combat with these guys the don't have a chance) and to answer last line this is not previous Mech Warrior titles.

Understand there needs to be balance in the Game if you implemented the Heat inefficiency plan you guys are talking about the game will be come unbalanced - as exploding ammunition can destroy certain parts of your mech and weapons !!!


Your last Paragraph I get most of what you are talking about however you said (I was waiting for one of them to override and explode, but nope. I guess the tactic there was to hope the other guy exceeded the heat scale by more then you did) what are you talking about ?.

I did not make any statements that you are trying to say I did. I completely disagree with your Heat plan method, have you any idea what kind problems to game balance and survival that plan would have have you even considered what problems that would have(ALL MECHS WILL OVER HEAT THERE IS NO ESCAPING THAT FACT) that plan you were thinking of putting out would cause more problems.

First, to clarify my last paragraph, I did not use the word "you" to mean you specifically, but in reference to being one of the Mech pilots engaged in the behavior I referenced. So no, that was not directed to you in particular. I apologize if you took it that way.

I did understand what you said about people "anyone silly enough over load there mech with to many PPC well the fact that they shut down a lot is due to poor heat management and well if they wish to be a a sitting target then that there problem and punishment". The point I, and others, are trying to make is that it is not punishment enough on it's own. Not all Mechs overheat, and even those that do, do not all exceed the heat scale by a huge percentage. This would only effect those players who DO exceed the heat scale by serious amount. This promotes tactical combat. It only seriously affects people who decide to hit that alpha button when they are already pushing the limits of their heat capacity.

The "problems to game balance and survival" are what we are trying to accomplish, as they aren't problems, but a solution. This is an effort to promote balance, not destroy it.

Edit: Fixed grammar error

Edited by The Strange, 19 April 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Nihtgenga]

Quote

Phylum: Can the excess heat damage components inside the mech and reduce their capacity?
Ex: engine losing 10% power, 5% longer recharge times for weapons and so on.
A: It’s possible, however we do not have any immediate plans to support this.

Non-digital, heat management and exploit correction seem unlikely to be implemented before I have a long gray beard, if ever.

[Grey Death Storm]

The Strange, on 19 April 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

First, to clarify my last paragraph, I did not use the word "you" to mean you specifically, but in reference to being one of the Mech pilots engaged in the behavior I referenced. So no, that was not directed to you in particular. I apologize if you took it that way.

I did understand what you said about people "anyone silly enough over load there mech with to many PPC well the fact that they shut down a lot is due to poor heat management and well if they wish to be a a sitting target then that there problem and punishment". The point I, and others, are trying to make is that it is not punishment enough on it's own. Not all Mechs overheat, and even those that do, do not all exceed the heat scale by a huge percentage. This would only effect those players who DO exceed the heat scale by serious amount. This promotes tactical combat. It only seriously affects people who decide to hit that alpha button when they are already pushing the limits of their heat capacity.

The "problems to game balance and survival" are what we are trying to accomplish, as they aren't problems, but a solution. This is an effort to promote balance, not destroy it.

Edit: Fixed grammar error

HI The Strange

Thank you for your input - I understand what you are talking about regards someone silly enough put large amounts PPC type weapons into there Mech. But this plan will not only affect these guys it will affect a lot people also who have designed there mech for Brawling a mech will over heat and in direr situations you will over heat and hit the dangerous thresh hold !!!, this will have a big impact also on laser based mech build i.e. mechs designed with laser weapons in mind,


I personally don't think is good idea so I can not vote on it because i fear about the implications in battle when you have no choice but to keep firing to survive and Alpha strike is a Mechwarriors last line of deference this heat plan who defeat purpose of using it.

All I can say guys think carefully about what that type heat plan your trying to implement and how it will affect everyone not just the silly ones who overload with 6 PPC (Some Mechs are designed with laser weapons in mind !)

Also I do not write post to be an a complete pain to anyone, but only to voice my concerns and I do not try to offend anyone, please try not to look at me as being a pain in the butt.

Edited by Death Storm, 20 April 2013 - 02:09 AM.

[MasterBLB]

Any other than shutdown overheat penalty has no reason to exist with the current DHS implementation and weapon heat values.In TT all these factors are perfectly balanced,while in MWO weapons generate MUCH more heat,and there are crippled double heatsinks giving only 1.4x dissipation.
Until this will be tweaked I see no option to introduce additional penalties,though I like idea of them.

[buckfast]

just so you guys know i have ran a 4ppc 2 er ppc stalker and i have heat issues with it but if i remember right i had 16/17dble heatsinks something along those lines anyway but i barely overheat and shut down due to me actualy managing my heat.

normaly i start with an alpha for 60% heat then followed by a 4 ppc alpha 30% heat putting me on 90% (bit lower due to cooling but cba to go into game and get u right numbers) then as i cool off if need'd i cycle fire ppc's while retreating into cover not overheating and iv just done over 100damage without overheating whats so hard about that? overwise i would fire 4 ppc's 3 times then cycle fire them or just cycle i have overheated by accident ofc panicking or just plain stupidly clicking alpha instead of firing one ppc XD but at that point when my heat was at a guess 140% i should of had some consequence rather than going meh got to sit here he is dead tho or ran off

basically my point is iv ran probs the hotest running build (apart from ofc 6 er ppc god help any1 that ran that) and delt with it not overheating (much ) so why would implementing something bad happening if you do go over by a stupid ammount when it is easy to not overheat
if you cant deal with your temperatures correctly why run a hot mech take more weapons off for heatsinks or change weapons your failure to control your mech should not be a reason why you can do unreal and stupid things to it

just so you know that last dig is not a dig at any1 in particular

[Grey Death Storm]

buckfast, on 20 April 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

just so you guys know i have ran a 4ppc 2 er ppc stalker and i have heat issues with it but if i remember right i had 16/17dble heatsinks something along those lines anyway but i barely overheat and shut down due to me actualy managing my heat.

normaly i start with an alpha for 60% heat then followed by a 4 ppc alpha 30% heat putting me on 90% (bit lower due to cooling but cba to go into game and get u right numbers) then as i cool off if need'd i cycle fire ppc's while retreating into cover not overheating and iv just done over 100damage without overheating whats so hard about that? overwise i would fire 4 ppc's 3 times then cycle fire them or just cycle i have overheated by accident ofc panicking or just plain stupidly clicking alpha instead of firing one ppc XD but at that point when my heat was at a guess 140% i should of had some consequence rather than going meh got to sit here he is dead tho or ran off

basically my point is iv ran probs the hotest running build (apart from ofc 6 er ppc god help any1 that ran that) and delt with it not overheating (much ) so why would implementing something bad happening if you do go over by a stupid ammount when it is easy to not overheat
if you cant deal with your temperatures correctly why run a hot mech take more weapons off for heatsinks or change weapons your failure to control your mech should not be a reason why you can do unreal and stupid things to it

just so you know that last dig is not a dig at any1 in particular

Well my thoughts are not so much on overloaded Laser based mechs more so someone who is sensible and knows how to manage heat, however if you are a brawler type mech and you fight the enemy in close proximity every shot you take you build up heat and you will eventually hit that critical heat point you guys are talking about. Plus im not just thinking about that I am generally thinking about how it will affect game balance as well as Guass ammo with 90% or any ammo chance exploding and blowing parts of your cockpit away.


However I would say regarding your stalker Mech try swapping your 2 ER PPC for Normal PPC the only difference between ER PPC they give you slightly longer distance and higher heat problems, also go to your upgrades and select structures look for New ENDOL Steel hopefully you should be able equip that it should shave 4 tons you could apply to heat sinks. However I never tried your build before.

Edited by Death Storm, 20 April 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[HarmAssassin]

Heat at 110% = engine inefficiency, slower movement until you cool down.
Heat at 125% = permanent engine damage until end of match, slowing movement by 15% until match ends.
Heat at 150% = 25% chance of engine explosion.
Heat at 165% = 50% chance of engine explosion.
Heat at 175% = boom - you're dead.

This way, results don't favor one type of mech over another (ammo explosions only hurt those who carry ammo). You can still override the shutdown if you need to, but you'll know that there will be a cost to be paid.

It is easy to code, easy to understand and communicate, and it only hurts those who are foolish enough to ignore heat (or build alpha/shutdown builds).

Also, using jump jets should cost more heat than they currently do; and the larger energy weapons should be returned to their original heat values (before they were reduced to account for poor hit detection).

[Hotthedd]

Death Storm, on 19 April 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Congratulations for completely missing the point of what my paragraph was trying to make and yes you have proved point that maybe its in the best interest that the developer should be in charge of balancing the game and not players who can not understand what term Balancing the game Means !!! BRAVO

I try to be respectable toward other people I try not to upset anyone else, so there is no need for sarcastic behaviour

Call sign The Strange I mean no disrespect but regarding your topic "That is the whole idea. Most Mechs I see today are Laser and PPC based boats, not fighters. It's alpha, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown, alpha, shutdown. What's wrong with encouraging players to actually think about something other then "where is my alpha strike button". Maybe they start to chain fire those PPCs instead."

anyone silly enough over load there mech with to many PPC well the fact that they shut down a lot is due to poor heat management and well if they wish to be a a sitting target then that there problem and punishment ( If you get in close combat with these guys the don't have a chance). altering the Heat efficiency to do the above Idea in this thread is trying change the game because certain people cant deal with the fact that someone used there brain about what weapons work for them best in the battle that's whole idea loading out your mech and is not balancing a game its altering it so that person is forced rethink there strategy because other player cant deal with that type problem (that called Tactics), again I mean no disrespect

But the whole point is that it WOULD be a "headache" (If that is what you want to call heat management), and it WOULD affect ALL mechs' (therefore balanced), and it WOULD discourage laser and PPC boating. Your statement seemed to suggest that making the game more difficult to master would be a BAD thing. We obviously disagree.

[Nihtgenga]

I'd like to add: it would not necessarily be more difficult even, as the current exploiters have to time their alpha-shutdown-sequence as well to get the effect of that added alphastrike. Implementing heat management in the game would only make it a bit more complex, but a whole lot more fair.

[Sable Dove]

Here's an additional idea to make heat more relevant: a shut-down mech cools down more quickly, but does not avoid the overheating damage; if I'm at 99% heat and I fire and it brings me up to 140% heat and shuts the mech down, it should still take damage for being over 100%; it would just cool down to 100% faster, so it would take less damage than if it kept running instead of shutting down.

Who would this hurt? Pretty much no one but PPC/LL boats.

[Grey Death Storm]

Hotthedd, on 20 April 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

But the whole point is that it WOULD be a "headache" (If that is what you want to call heat management), and it WOULD affect ALL mechs' (therefore balanced), and it WOULD discourage laser and PPC boating. Your statement seemed to suggest that making the game more difficult to master would be a BAD thing. We obviously disagree.

No you are wrong about my input, the point is Hotthed you are doing it for wrong reason Now im not saying its an excellent idea for someone to mount 6 x PPC on a battle Mech however everyone has a right to experiment and explore what weapon load-out which suits them, and anyone who does manage to get good weapon balance that works in combat and gives them an advantage in battle should not be punished that using some degree of tactics.

And the reason your voting for this plan is because someone has thought of a way to use the weapons to there advantage it may not be the best way but its still away and they don't go unpunished i.e constantly shutting down which makes them vulnerable to attack. Again your voting for because that person annoys you and you haven't found away to counter that yet, so you need to change the game to stop these guys using that type of load-out and that's wrong and is not balancing the game that's chancing the game to your advantage.

And I am sorry I can not vote for that anyone who is smart enough to manage weapons in the mech lap to there advantages should not be punished that whole point of the game using thing that will give you the edge. Please note that does not mean i agree with the idea of mounting 6 PPC on a battle Mech. Other reasons is because i feel the heat plan you are suggesting in this thread will have an impact on everyone. even the guys who balance the weapons properly.

Edited by Death Storm, 21 April 2013 - 04:53 AM.