I hope for something closer to (I guess what we call now) the board game OmniMechs, armor and engine fixed but relatively easy to change other components. Have a higher cost to mod non-Omni's and those fixed components.
7
Limit battlemech customization.
Started by gilliam, Oct 31 2011 02:48 PM
273 replies to this topic
#22
-
-
- 62 posts
Member
- LocationCanada
Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:19 PM
You know... there is ONE other approach that might work...
The battlemechs themselves all come in a wide variety of flavours. The Marauder, my favourite battlemech, has over a dozen standard configurations. How about, instead of limiting customization arbitrarily, you allow the mechs to swap between various arm/body/head/shoulder parts which each define how many weapons can be mounted and the EXACT size of the weapons that can be mounted? (IE: Small, Medium, Large, X-Large.)
For example, you could have four different arms to choose from for a particular mech for each side, and your choices of what you could mount would come down to, based on which arm you choose:
#1: One Large Balistic Weapon
#2: Two Medium Energy Weapons
#3: One Medium Energy, One Small Balistic
#4: Two Small Balistic, One Small Missile Pod
So already, this prevents the mech from loading large energy weapons and medium balistic weapons on the arms at all. This would also make for a bit more realism in actual physical weapon output. (IE: If the arm looks like it only has two lasers, how do you end up with three small missile launchers in it?)
Boating would still be possible to some extent with this approach, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective because, unlike with a slots-based system, you can't simply put 18 medium lasers on the thing because the total quantity of similar weapons allowed wouldn't be anywhere near high enough given the part options for any one particular mech.
The battlemechs themselves all come in a wide variety of flavours. The Marauder, my favourite battlemech, has over a dozen standard configurations. How about, instead of limiting customization arbitrarily, you allow the mechs to swap between various arm/body/head/shoulder parts which each define how many weapons can be mounted and the EXACT size of the weapons that can be mounted? (IE: Small, Medium, Large, X-Large.)
For example, you could have four different arms to choose from for a particular mech for each side, and your choices of what you could mount would come down to, based on which arm you choose:
#1: One Large Balistic Weapon
#2: Two Medium Energy Weapons
#3: One Medium Energy, One Small Balistic
#4: Two Small Balistic, One Small Missile Pod
So already, this prevents the mech from loading large energy weapons and medium balistic weapons on the arms at all. This would also make for a bit more realism in actual physical weapon output. (IE: If the arm looks like it only has two lasers, how do you end up with three small missile launchers in it?)
Boating would still be possible to some extent with this approach, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective because, unlike with a slots-based system, you can't simply put 18 medium lasers on the thing because the total quantity of similar weapons allowed wouldn't be anywhere near high enough given the part options for any one particular mech.
Edited by gemini, 31 October 2011 - 05:20 PM.
#23
-
-
- Elite Founder
- 1,633 posts
Member
- LocationWashington, USA
Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:31 PM
gemini, on 31 October 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:
You know... there is ONE other approach that might work...
The battlemechs themselves all come in a wide variety of flavours. The Marauder, my favourite battlemech, has over a dozen standard configurations. How about, instead of limiting customization arbitrarily, you allow the mechs to swap between various arm/body/head/shoulder parts which each define how many weapons can be mounted and the EXACT size of the weapons that can be mounted? (IE: Small, Medium, Large, X-Large.)
For example, you could have four different arms to choose from for a particular mech for each side, and your choices of what you could mount would come down to, based on which arm you choose:
#1: One Large Balistic Weapon
#2: Two Medium Energy Weapons
#3: One Medium Energy, One Small Balistic
#4: Two Small Balistic, One Small Missile Pod
So already, this prevents the mech from loading large energy weapons and medium balistic weapons on the arms at all. This would also make for a bit more realism in actual physical weapon output. (IE: If the arm looks like it only has two lasers, how do you end up with three small missile launchers in it?)
Boating would still be possible to some extent with this approach, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective because, unlike with a slots-based system, you can't simply put 18 medium lasers on the thing because the total quantity of similar weapons allowed wouldn't be anywhere near high enough given the part options for any one particular mech.
The battlemechs themselves all come in a wide variety of flavours. The Marauder, my favourite battlemech, has over a dozen standard configurations. How about, instead of limiting customization arbitrarily, you allow the mechs to swap between various arm/body/head/shoulder parts which each define how many weapons can be mounted and the EXACT size of the weapons that can be mounted? (IE: Small, Medium, Large, X-Large.)
For example, you could have four different arms to choose from for a particular mech for each side, and your choices of what you could mount would come down to, based on which arm you choose:
#1: One Large Balistic Weapon
#2: Two Medium Energy Weapons
#3: One Medium Energy, One Small Balistic
#4: Two Small Balistic, One Small Missile Pod
So already, this prevents the mech from loading large energy weapons and medium balistic weapons on the arms at all. This would also make for a bit more realism in actual physical weapon output. (IE: If the arm looks like it only has two lasers, how do you end up with three small missile launchers in it?)
Boating would still be possible to some extent with this approach, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective because, unlike with a slots-based system, you can't simply put 18 medium lasers on the thing because the total quantity of similar weapons allowed wouldn't be anywhere near high enough given the part options for any one particular mech.
But ballistic weapons are smaller than energy weapons, with the machine gun being the smallest weapon in the game (if you remove the ammo from the equation). Ballistic weapons aren't any better than energy weapons. In fact, larger ammo weapons create almost as much heat as energy weapons, but can still run out of rounds.
For those concerned about omnimechs and replaceable parts in the innersphere, mech customization could cost both money and time. Huge rebuilds could require real days to complete, where omnimechs only take hours.
#24
Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:35 PM
s3dition, on 31 October 2011 - 05:31 PM, said:
For those concerned about omnimechs and replaceable parts in the innersphere, mech customization could cost both money and time. Huge rebuilds could require real days to complete, where omnimechs only take hours.
Ideally I'd love that, but that would be interesting given they seem to be hinting that the game progresses in real time. Unless you have a back-up 'Mech, rather than say selling them off so you could afford leet upgrades, would they really prevent you from playing for days at a time?
#25
-
-
- Elite Founder
- 1,633 posts
Member
- LocationWashington, USA
Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:52 PM
World of Tanks locks your current tank in battle. Even if you die, you can't quit out and just start up another battle unless you have another tank. It should be the same way in Battletech.
If your mech is getting massive repairs or overhauls, it should have to sit out. The closer to the original mech your keeping it, the quicker the changes will be.
This also gives players a reason to be cautious and not just suicide to hurry to the next game. You could also stop repairs early and enter battle with a damaged mech, but I'm guessing this would only come into play if critical battles popped up, forcing players into the battle if they want to compete and win a victory for their side/company/whatever.
If your mech is getting massive repairs or overhauls, it should have to sit out. The closer to the original mech your keeping it, the quicker the changes will be.
This also gives players a reason to be cautious and not just suicide to hurry to the next game. You could also stop repairs early and enter battle with a damaged mech, but I'm guessing this would only come into play if critical battles popped up, forcing players into the battle if they want to compete and win a victory for their side/company/whatever.
Edited by s3dition, 31 October 2011 - 05:52 PM.
#26
-
-
- 248 posts
Member
- LocationFlorida
Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:12 PM
Well mechwarrior 2 mercenarys during campaign play you could not customize your mech while on a mission, but once you got to your mech bay between missions you could customize to your hearts content, as long as you have the equipment and funds.
So one thing would be to have limited amounts of funds available to you, and have a some what limited availability of parts, so that one can not just go hog wild and customize your mech to what ever you want at a whim.
So one thing would be to have limited amounts of funds available to you, and have a some what limited availability of parts, so that one can not just go hog wild and customize your mech to what ever you want at a whim.
#27
-
-
- The Bowman
- 3,715 posts
Member
- LocationO'Shaughnnessy MMW Base, Devon Continent, Rochester, FedCom
Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:25 PM
I keep hearing about boating, and I have to say that you could only TRULY boat from MWII, skipping MWIII to MWIII: Pirate's Moon to MWIV: Mercs. MWIII was truly the only MW game that even remotely came close to real BattleTech; if I could figure out how to load that one up, again, without having to change my operating system, I would.
So, if MWO is going to be even remotely close to BattleTech, hopefully any customization that's done will be limited by available resources, experience, and time.
So, if MWO is going to be even remotely close to BattleTech, hopefully any customization that's done will be limited by available resources, experience, and time.
#28
-
-
- Legendary Founder
- 485 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:36 PM
I myself am very much so pro-stock mechs, with some variants. I do feel it is more accurate to the battletech universe but that's just me 
#29
-
-
- 24 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:57 PM
gemini, on 31 October 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:
The funny thing about boating is that, from a design perspective, it only ruins the gameplay if there are balancing issues. Placing arbitrary limits on customization to discourage boating is not the answer. Besides, sometimes it's fun to deck a mech out in hoards of Streak SRMs or Medium Lasers to see how well it fares against more balanced designs. Skill will always be a factor too. Loading a mech up with nothing but Medium Lasers won't help you at all if you can't hit the broad side of a dropship.
The better answer is to tweak the relational capabilities of the weapons until they are more balanced. Some would argue that doing this doesn't stay true to the formulas and damage/heat tables of the original tabletop game, but then, Mech 2 and 3 followed those formulas almost TOO perfectly and those games had serious balancing issues with some of its weapons. (For instance: Getting hit in the same leg just twice by an AC 20 in Mech 3 = Game Over, and that could happen in a heartbeat due to low AC refire times.)
Tabletop math doesn't exactly translate perfectly to a real-time simulation. I feel that so long as the devs do their job and make the weapons as balanced as possible, arbitrary customization limits will not be necessary.
And for the record, the only two times I boated a mech in Mech 3 while playing online, I got last place and 2nd-to-last place.
The better answer is to tweak the relational capabilities of the weapons until they are more balanced. Some would argue that doing this doesn't stay true to the formulas and damage/heat tables of the original tabletop game, but then, Mech 2 and 3 followed those formulas almost TOO perfectly and those games had serious balancing issues with some of its weapons. (For instance: Getting hit in the same leg just twice by an AC 20 in Mech 3 = Game Over, and that could happen in a heartbeat due to low AC refire times.)
Tabletop math doesn't exactly translate perfectly to a real-time simulation. I feel that so long as the devs do their job and make the weapons as balanced as possible, arbitrary customization limits will not be necessary.
And for the record, the only two times I boated a mech in Mech 3 while playing online, I got last place and 2nd-to-last place.
Then you sir have never ran around in MW3 in a Shadow Cat decked with 16 clan flamers, MASC, JJ's and limited armor. Making Mechs go critical and escaping in time that you take medium damage.
But overall I agree, the best way to limit customization is to hardpoint lock. MW4 series did a good job on that idea, and the areas were placed in the more logical spots. I'm not against boating but in the MW timeline and keeping true to the spirit of the game its something that should be discouraged.
#30
-
-
- 62 posts
Member
- LocationCanada
Posted 31 October 2011 - 07:33 PM
Oh yeah, I finally read the PC Gamer article and noticed that there was a very brief mention of being able to acquire "mech parts". Considering 95% of what you actually put inside a mech is weaponry, this leads me to a few possible speculations:
1. That there WILL be a part-based system similar to what I suggested earlier, which determines what you can load inside.
2. That the mech parts themselves determine what weapons you get.
3. That you actually have quantity limits for each weapon and to load a particular weapon up in GREATER quantities, you have to purchase that additional quantity with real cash.
4. That mech parts are combinations of weapons that you can apply to more than just one mech.
5. That they really are referring to the 5% of stuff that isn't weaponry. :P
I'm sure we'll all find out soon enough. ;)
1. That there WILL be a part-based system similar to what I suggested earlier, which determines what you can load inside.
2. That the mech parts themselves determine what weapons you get.
3. That you actually have quantity limits for each weapon and to load a particular weapon up in GREATER quantities, you have to purchase that additional quantity with real cash.
4. That mech parts are combinations of weapons that you can apply to more than just one mech.
5. That they really are referring to the 5% of stuff that isn't weaponry. :P
I'm sure we'll all find out soon enough. ;)
#31
-
-
- 604 posts
Member
- LocationGMT -6
Posted 31 October 2011 - 07:35 PM
It would be REALLY crazy if the "'Mech parts" in question were actual limbs that you could slap together to create FRANKENMECH.
#32
Posted 31 October 2011 - 07:50 PM
You know. One thing I do NOT want to see is a MW4 style mechlab. I have been slaving away trying to make canon variants... Do you know how hard that is in that mechlab? A good number do not work, the hardpoints are not there.
I have been playing MWLL for over a year and a half and would be content with simple refits as a poster above commented was available in the IS at the time. Not to say working on a loadout is not a blast, then getting to see how it works from your conception. They very well may do it where you need to salvage or buy the parts to use them. Deadly weapons will be hard to come by, those small lasers? Why the merchants have backstock.
I do hope you get bonuses or just save on CBills using stock mechs. I for one LOVE the challenge of stock mechs.
I have been playing MWLL for over a year and a half and would be content with simple refits as a poster above commented was available in the IS at the time. Not to say working on a loadout is not a blast, then getting to see how it works from your conception. They very well may do it where you need to salvage or buy the parts to use them. Deadly weapons will be hard to come by, those small lasers? Why the merchants have backstock.
I do hope you get bonuses or just save on CBills using stock mechs. I for one LOVE the challenge of stock mechs.
#33
-
-
- The Bowman
- 3,715 posts
Member
- LocationO'Shaughnnessy MMW Base, Devon Continent, Rochester, FedCom
Posted 31 October 2011 - 08:09 PM
CoffiNail, you hit the nail on the head, bub... in... pretty much everything you said, hehe.
I think this game, just based on the PCGamer article, is already going to be so far and away advanced, in the right direction, from what I've been able to read, that I think we'll all be, hopefully, very pleasantly surprised. Now, if I could just become rich, I would be more than happy to donate a good portion of money to them.
I think this game, just based on the PCGamer article, is already going to be so far and away advanced, in the right direction, from what I've been able to read, that I think we'll all be, hopefully, very pleasantly surprised. Now, if I could just become rich, I would be more than happy to donate a good portion of money to them.
#34
-
-
- Knight Errant
- 10 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2011 - 08:11 PM
cant the game go to a mmo style fps. where you level up your character and actually have personal weapons and perks like cod or bf. then you also have a mech that you pilot for main battles. that way instead of slugging it out all the time you can go and level up your repair abilitys or something. you could run your basic 4 soldier classes like rifleman, engineer, support, sniper or you can have mechwarrior, aerospace pilot, tank commander, naval pilot (water or space) and own what ever customized craft to suit your needs or your class needs.
maybe in game voip support for your lance. and if your broke with no money you can rent a battlearmor suit real cheap to make some cash from battles or whatever.
important: must have tanks, naval vessels, hovercraft, aerospace fighters, vtols, dropships, planetary transports and naval spaceships for larger units.
please let us run the full mechwarrior universe like it was intended from the beginning. i know its alot just a wishlist more or less.
maybe in game voip support for your lance. and if your broke with no money you can rent a battlearmor suit real cheap to make some cash from battles or whatever.
important: must have tanks, naval vessels, hovercraft, aerospace fighters, vtols, dropships, planetary transports and naval spaceships for larger units.
please let us run the full mechwarrior universe like it was intended from the beginning. i know its alot just a wishlist more or less.
#35
-
- 4 posts
Rookie
- LocationCape Coral, FL
Posted 31 October 2011 - 08:16 PM
MW4: Mercs Mech Lab is exactly what I want.. the best thing that could happen for this game would be to build off of what Mercs had and allow leagues such as NBT to reboot.
High level competitive Mechwarrior league play was some of the most fulfilling and fun gaming I've ever experienced.
High level competitive Mechwarrior league play was some of the most fulfilling and fun gaming I've ever experienced.
#36
-
-
- 33 posts
Member
Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:26 PM
If weapons are properly balanced in terms of heat, damage, and range- and meks are properly balanced in terms of heat dissipation, armor, and speed- then "boating" won't really be an issue.
The MW3 environment is not really something you can hold up as an example because that was back in the early days of online gaming- when net code was **** and people thought 56k modems were fast. People used Shadowcats because you had to lead your targets, and the faster you were, the harder it was to calculate the lag.
In the modern online environment- a Shadowcat popping 16 flamers and no armor is going to get drilled so fast it won't even be funny.
And if heat is worked correctly, shooting that many flamers will cripple your movement speed, if not shut you down altogether. If damage is worked correctly (as in, excess damage properly transfers and internal components are actually tracked and destroyed) your engine is going to be destroyed before you get close. You're going to need armor, and heavier teammates to distract your foes so you can strike at the rear arc.
Customization does not have to be limited if the foundational mechanics of mech components is correctly implemented.
The MW3 environment is not really something you can hold up as an example because that was back in the early days of online gaming- when net code was **** and people thought 56k modems were fast. People used Shadowcats because you had to lead your targets, and the faster you were, the harder it was to calculate the lag.
In the modern online environment- a Shadowcat popping 16 flamers and no armor is going to get drilled so fast it won't even be funny.
And if heat is worked correctly, shooting that many flamers will cripple your movement speed, if not shut you down altogether. If damage is worked correctly (as in, excess damage properly transfers and internal components are actually tracked and destroyed) your engine is going to be destroyed before you get close. You're going to need armor, and heavier teammates to distract your foes so you can strike at the rear arc.
Customization does not have to be limited if the foundational mechanics of mech components is correctly implemented.
#37
Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:42 PM
I hope customization is just limited to upgrading weapons and equipment on mechs like on World of Tanks if anything at all. Just give them stock mechs and make them deal with it. Or charge them 200 dollars to customize a mech.
#38
-
-
- The Hammer
- 1,527 posts
Member
- LocationOakland, CA
Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:51 PM
There are so many stock configs out there I really can't see the reason for people to have to change em.
And I don't wanna see another 8 ERPPC Annihilator(teh sparkler!), 4UAC20 Sunder or 16Flamer/MG SCat a la MW3 ever again.
Of course I doubt we will see ice maps or C5 ever again either lol
And I don't wanna see another 8 ERPPC Annihilator(teh sparkler!), 4UAC20 Sunder or 16Flamer/MG SCat a la MW3 ever again.
Of course I doubt we will see ice maps or C5 ever again either lol
Edited by damocles, 31 October 2011 - 09:52 PM.
#39
-
-
- 160 posts
Member
Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:36 AM
I always thought refit levels as in Battletech would have made a lot more sense. Make the canonically most common factory variants available in the game, and allow refits based on time, money, parts and facilities availability. In addition to C-Bill costs, I think every component in Battletech also has three more rating which can be used to restrict what you can get your hands on and use:
1) technology rating (not to be confused with the rules levels, but actually an in-universe scale)
2) availability rating, at least roughly the inverse of rarity
3) legality rating, which can vary based on where you are, who you are, and who you work for
For a game with a persistent character that levels up, applying canonical systems already developed for Battletech campain play and the Mechwarrior RPG would have a lot of fans tickled pink and allow players to work toward their dream machines while leveling up their characters. As you play, you can perhaps gain access to better facilities able to do deeper refit levels and with higher-tech stuff. Access to stuff with a more restrictive legality rating could also be earned through gameplay, and availability rating could determine likelihood of something turning up on the market so that equipment being injected into the game world will be roughly in canonical proportions. Perhaps a point-build system could be added on top of the existing refit rules to limit rare equipment; the abundance of clan stuff and experimental technology in other MW games really makes them feel detached from the Battletech world as much as the backwards weight class distribution and excessive marginalisation of non-battlemech units on the field. (I know Mechwarrior is about Mechwarriors, but they exist in a world with other things like tanks and combat aircraft, and those other things are not quite the pushovers they are depicted as in MW games.)
If later on an instant-action style game is added, just let there be a variable for allowed refit level in addition to weight limits and such.
1) technology rating (not to be confused with the rules levels, but actually an in-universe scale)
2) availability rating, at least roughly the inverse of rarity
3) legality rating, which can vary based on where you are, who you are, and who you work for
For a game with a persistent character that levels up, applying canonical systems already developed for Battletech campain play and the Mechwarrior RPG would have a lot of fans tickled pink and allow players to work toward their dream machines while leveling up their characters. As you play, you can perhaps gain access to better facilities able to do deeper refit levels and with higher-tech stuff. Access to stuff with a more restrictive legality rating could also be earned through gameplay, and availability rating could determine likelihood of something turning up on the market so that equipment being injected into the game world will be roughly in canonical proportions. Perhaps a point-build system could be added on top of the existing refit rules to limit rare equipment; the abundance of clan stuff and experimental technology in other MW games really makes them feel detached from the Battletech world as much as the backwards weight class distribution and excessive marginalisation of non-battlemech units on the field. (I know Mechwarrior is about Mechwarriors, but they exist in a world with other things like tanks and combat aircraft, and those other things are not quite the pushovers they are depicted as in MW games.)
If later on an instant-action style game is added, just let there be a variable for allowed refit level in addition to weight limits and such.
#40
-
-
- 63 posts
Member
- LocationBrooklyn, NY
Posted 01 November 2011 - 04:29 AM
gilliam, on 31 October 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:
For campaign play at least, the Battletech rules solve this by making more extensive refits take longer and cost more. I hope something like this gets implemented here to avoid abominations like missile boat rifleman, or archers with the torsos decked out with autocannons.
This part of your proposal I like the most. Mechs IMO should be highly configurable but I don't believe this should be done with the speed we've seen in most games.
MW2 MErcenaries actually implemented this. If you customized a mech it took one to two missions for the modification to be finished.
5 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 5 guests, 0 anonymous users
