228 replies to this topic

[LittleGrim]

With the ballistic HSR I now feel confident chasing down/off lights in my Wang, its great. Mind you I'm not running into pilots of Wispsy's caliber...he scares me

[aniviron]

Kiiyor, on 17 April 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

I can see the logic, but i'm not on board with it yet.

I think that the weapon changes and new chassis are more responsible for it at the moment, mainly due to the fact that AC weapons are best carried on a heavier chassis because of their weight. More people wanting to test a new assault mech and more-viable heavy weapons = more assaults and heavy weapon carriers.

Lights still have their place, for sure. I'm actually seeing some much needed diversity in lights now, especially with energy Jenners. Now that Ravens aren't the utterly dominant platform they were, people seem to be branching out.

Plus, if PGI start seeing metrics predicting a slow and choking death for light mechs, they will likely do something about it. The fact that lights are a viable choice in this game is one of the bigger selling points for it, IMHO.

Lights made up 11% of mechs before ballistic HSR. I don't know what the numbers are right now, but I can't imagine that they are much better. It is true that lights can't take ballistics (an ac2 with one ton of ammo is seven tons; you can get a PPC for that much!) which is part of the problem, but I think there are deeper-seated problems with inter-class balance.

That said, intra-class balance has gotten much better, you are correct in that regard. The Jenners are currently as viable as the ravens (not quite as good as the 3L, much better than the 2/4X) and even though I still think the commando and spider need work, they're better in comparison than they were thanks to HSR for lasers.

[Fate 6]

stjobe, on 17 April 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Last match I played yesterday in my SDR-5D (ERLL+2ML) netted me 3 kills and 4 assists.

But you're on the right track for the solution: Play better.

Will be interesting to see how this affects the 3L population.

ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE WHERe?

Lights are notoriously easy to clean up kills with.

[One Medic Army]

So I've been running my Jenner (D) to make some moolah with the Founder's bonus.

Usually end up with 1-2 kills, 2-4 assists, ~200dmg, and alive (if we win).

Though I did get insta-legged by double AC/20 Jagers a couple times.

[Corvus Antaka]

light mechs are fine. It is just the days of being unhittable are over. time to use cover and strategy to your advantage.

[aniviron]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 17 April 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

light mechs are fine. It is just the days of being unhittable are over. time to use cover and strategy to your advantage.

Ah, that was my problem, I was standing still on a ridge screaming PLS SHOOT ME in public chat before. I am sure balance will be fine again now that we have your sage wisdom to follow.

[Corvus Antaka]

aniviron, on 17 April 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Ah, that was my problem, I was standing still on a ridge screaming PLS SHOOT ME in public chat before. I am sure balance will be fine again now that we have your sage wisdom to follow.

well my all light lance of 4 pugs on teamspeak tonight had little trouble winning games vs much heavier mechs. and a lot of it was down to not trying to circle of death an ac 40 jaggermech because they can actually hit you now

[Zolaz]

That is ok ... tough times for mediums as well. The scout role just isnt really needed. The fact that there are some mediums that can effectively do the scout role hurts all lights. Maybe weight class limitations and larger maps will help out.

[saintchuck]

Tough times? More like fun times. If you've played lazily, it may take some time to learn new tactics but speed is still your friend.

[Dr Killinger]

Good. A spider running between a group of 4 assaults and emerging unscathed was nonsense. Light pilots will have to adjust their tactics to more sneaky hit and run affairs, and actually be part of the team and let the big boys take the hits.

That said, our resident light pilot scored over 500 damage two nights ago, so it's still plausible. We'll see where the meta settles, though.

[stjobe]

aniviron, on 17 April 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Ah, that was my problem, I was standing still on a ridge screaming PLS SHOOT ME in public chat before. I am sure balance will be fine again now that we have your sage wisdom to follow.

Funnily enough, I did just that (minus the screaming in All chat) in a game yesterday. Seems nobody actually noticed the little Spider standing there pumping bolt after searing bolt™ of hot large laser death into them.

Was a bit weird, but very profitable.

[One Medic Army]

Dr Killinger, on 17 April 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Good. A spider running between a group of 4 assaults and emerging unscathed was nonsense. Light pilots will have to adjust their tactics to more sneaky hit and run affairs, and actually be part of the team and let the big boys take the hits.

That said, our resident light pilot scored over 500 damage two nights ago, so it's still plausible. We'll see where the meta settles, though.

Spiders can still do it, since they're such small targets and have jets.
Commandos can sometimes get away with it, as can Cicadas and fast Ravens.
Jenners, slow ravens, no chance in heck unless you're smart about it, and even then...

I've been running my Jenner-D all night, honestly I feel more like lights are now scouts and harassers than tiny assault mechs. That's a good thing.

[Marcus Cvellus]

Taemien, on 17 April 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

If anything, this is the time of the light mech. As more people use Stalkers and Highlanders, Light mechs will be the mech of choice to deal with them. You can back cap, you can backstab the heavier mechs, and you can scout them out for your team, whatever your cup of tea happens to be.

Can you run straight at a 6 PPC stalker? Not really. But you couldn't do it before if they had a low ping before. But you can come from the flank or back and gnaw on their back as they are helpless to get you off.



This one has NEVER played a previous MechWarrior game.

MW1 - Singleplayer only
MW2 - Light Mechs dominated due to lag shield
MW3 - Light Mechs dominated due to lag shield, Elementals (in the Expansion) counted as 10 ton mechs capable of speeds from 162-216kph and equipping 3 ER Medium Lasers or 3 Heavy Medium Lasers.
MW4 - Light Mechs were deadly in the right hands. Personally I could take on Daishi's in a Raven with high speed and unpredictable movements.
MWLL - Mechs such as the Raven, Owens, and Puma are useful as late game assets. The Puma especially is capable of holding its own against even Daishis, Madcat MKII's, and Blood Asps, as well as Atlases, Fafnirs (if you don't get too close), and Awesomes. The other two have different roles in the form of C3, Narc, and Tag support to call in Longtoms and Arrow IVs.

Just so you know, Marcus, this isn't related to Front Mission or whatever <insertanimemechahere> game or movie you got it mistaken with.

Mechs have double (maybe quadruple armor soon). I think you know that means that 100x2 is less than 300x2. So, those stalkers and rest of bigger mechs got tougher to crack with limited arsenal. Lights didnt get any bigger damage output or more weapon slots. So, those ppc stalkers you are talking about are not same stalkers lights fought and for which they were counterbalance in TT. Diminishing returns.
I know, lights had lagshield. Guess what: now they dont.
You get rewarded for kills, not harrasing. You get rewarded for damage, not capping.

I will skip your unsubstantiated ad homminem attack, trust me it isnt giving any weight to your arguments except in the eyes of people who already unconditionally agree with you.

You are not actually introduced to risk/reward concept, aren't you? Or enjoyment? Or maybe usefulness for your team?
If something need a lot of effort to get mediocre and unstable results, while at the same time something other is offered that will give more stable and quantitatively more results with less sweat what will anyone in sound mind choose?

I could write a wall of text explaining that to you, but if you didnt wrap your head around it until now, it ain't gonna help.

If it is common knowledge gun will miss fire 8 out of 10 times and it needs a extremely skilled operators to make it to fire 3 out of 10 times (not sure it will actually matter), is it reliable and useful? Will your teammates burst of joy when they see you carry it, knowing that their (virtual) lives depend on it?
Why would people field anything that will have all the drawbacks and none of pros?
Especially if new to game.

Too bad i played most of those games, and in a leveled field known as LAN, back in the day, so no lagshield, sorry to dissapoint and ruin 2 out of 3 arguments you have.

For MWLL i cant argue, never played it, and i don't gamble by using information i don't have to back up my claims.

In the end, use statistics, and law of large numbers. 10 great light pilots that go far beyond normal capability on occasion don't mean that something is balanced and dont make it a normal behavior.

Statistic say that lights consist less than 11% percent of mechs fielded, with numbers going down.
I am just interested why is that the case if it is, judging by your advice, sooooo easy to take down all those alpha builds when you are piloting light mech?

Edit:
Anyhow, dont get me wrong i am for balance and not repeating the mistakes that other people made in past.
We need balance, and i am certain that balance is not instashooting everything that moves and bringing only some builds in the field, while rest is just collecting dust because it is not viable enough.

Edited by Marcus Cvellus, 18 April 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[Caleb Lee]

Marcus Cvellus, on 18 April 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Statistic say that lights consist less than 11% percent of mechs fielded, with numbers going down.
I am just interested why is that the case if it is, judging by your advice, sooooo easy to take down all those alpha builds when you are piloting light mech?

Edit:
Anyhow, dont get me wrong i am for balance and not repeating the mistakes that other people made in past.
We need balance, and i am certain that balance is not instashooting everything that moves and bringing only some builds in the field, while rest is just collecting dust because it is not viable enough.

I can help answer that... it's LESS easy to take down those Heavy/Assault mechs than it was before. In fact, it's dangerous if they are covering each other and either pilot can hit the broadside of a barn.

The days where average pilots could rely on lag shields and poor hitboxes (Raven) are gone.

The light pilots you'll still see around are those with quick reflexes, a good head on their shoulder and typically NOT stupid. A stupid light is a dead light now, and unfortunately that rules out about 50% or more of the current population from what I've seen.

So they'll migrate to high armor, damage alpha builds because that's ALL they are capable of playing.

My favorite quote from last night was a bunch of assault pilots crying about how lights days were ending and they needed to be nerfed even FURTHER. I asked him what he meant when HSR was already in the game, he brought up collision and I said:

"Buddy, this is Alpine for one... second, we weren't anywhere close to your slow *** where you could have knocked us down."

Wish I could post screenshot as it made my night with several kills and over 600 damage in my Founder Jenner-D, but that'd be name & shame so...

P.S. I die more often now but I still tear up the other team.

Quit crying about how the class isn't viable anymore cause it is, it just takes a better breed of pilot to do well in it now as it's less forgiving.

[N0V0CAIN]

Tough times? are you drunk. My Raven kills like always...

[Gremlich Johns]

Lights were never meant to be harrassers.

[LordBraxton]

Gremlich Johns, on 18 April 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Lights were never meant to be harrassers.

That's not true, but they were meant to harass lone mechs.

Lag shield used to be so bad 1 raven could harass an entire company.

[aniviron]

Gremlich Johns, on 18 April 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Lights were never meant to be harrassers.

Translation: Lights aren't meant to do damage.

Okay then, what is the function of a light in the game?

Don't you dare tell me it is "scouting." Scouting is not a valid role. You need a scout very briefly at the beginning of the game to determine where the main enemy push is. After that, you know more or less where they are, and can monitor their positions from afar with an assault. And honestly, the maps are not large or complex enough (even alp and tourm) that you need scouting even for an eight-assault team. Didn't find the enemy the way you went? Then they went to the other side of the map as you.

[Inkarnus]

with that atleast you would get a reward and it would promote driving a scout
RandR MK2.0
less tonnage more CBILLS
more Lowtech more CBILLS
more Hightech less CBILLS

Edited by Inkarnus, 18 April 2013 - 03:20 PM.

[FupDup]

Gremlich Johns, on 18 April 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Lights were never meant to be harrassers.

Exhibit A:
http://mwomercs.com/game/battlemechs



Exhibit B:

Battletech Wiki said:

All 'Mechs weighing from 20 up to 35 tons are classified as "light". Their skeleton can only carry limited armor, but the higher efficiency of smaller fusion reactors means that light 'Mechs benefit from superior mobility. They are typically fast but lightly armed and armored. These 'Mechs are generally used as scout 'Mechs and anti-personnel units instead of frontline combat duty, but some are designated combat 'Mechs with relatively heavy armament. Their low production cost, high proliferation, and relatively good supply of spare parts meant that they saw widespread use throughout history in virtually any role.

Famous light scout 'Mechs include the Locust, Stinger, and Wasp, while the Commando, Jenner, and Panther are powerful combat units for their size. Clan technology provides their designs such as the Adder (Puma) with firepower equalling Inner Sphere 'Mechs twice their size.

Notable specialized light designs include the Ostscout Recon 'Mech with its advanced sensor gear, the Raven ECM 'Mech, and the Firestarter Incendiary 'Mech.

Edited by FupDup, 18 April 2013 - 04:32 PM.