Ammo explosions, blurred vision and reduced top speed for getting higher on the heat scale, before shutdown. Right now heat scale doesn't mean much, other than you can't spam energy weapons without taking a break.
4
High Heat Should Always Cause Damage
Started by GODzillaGSPB, Apr 17 2013 05:52 AM
65 replies to this topic
#62
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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:56 PM
GODzillaGSPB, on 17 April 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:
Currently, when a ppc-Stalker ist at 95% heat, he often still fires all his weapons as an alpha strike. Heat would normally end up somewhere around 125% or so, but the mech shuts down, no damage done. Cool, right? You get back up, heat is at 98% --> alpha again, would end up at 128% this time, but no problem, mech shuts down. Super cool!
...where is the sense in that?
Make it so that when heat is (internally) reaching such heights, you take damage despite the shutdown!
Because normally all these builds are already balanced by the heat. They run hot. Even a single ac/20 Hunchback runs hot. I know because I had one. Still people keep on firing because they know nothing will happen. That should change! And it's a simple change, isn't it?
I wouldn't even consider this any kind of nerf to high-alpha-builds like some people demanded. Just a fix to the heat system that is long overdue! And everyone will be affected, even those who are not running an all ppc- or large-laser-Stalker, a dual ac/20 jagermech or a splatcat.
But, let's be honest, those are the ones being affected the most. But instead of becoming just bad and people starting to look for the next big thing, they just would have to play a bit more careful or otherwise go splat by heat.
...where is the sense in that?
Make it so that when heat is (internally) reaching such heights, you take damage despite the shutdown!
Because normally all these builds are already balanced by the heat. They run hot. Even a single ac/20 Hunchback runs hot. I know because I had one. Still people keep on firing because they know nothing will happen. That should change! And it's a simple change, isn't it?
I wouldn't even consider this any kind of nerf to high-alpha-builds like some people demanded. Just a fix to the heat system that is long overdue! And everyone will be affected, even those who are not running an all ppc- or large-laser-Stalker, a dual ac/20 jagermech or a splatcat.
But, let's be honest, those are the ones being affected the most. But instead of becoming just bad and people starting to look for the next big thing, they just would have to play a bit more careful or otherwise go splat by heat.
That is an EXCELENT ideia, but unfortunatly it wont stick, the PGI defense force (AKA WoT/COD/WoW players everything BUT the true Battletech players) wouldnt let it slide, it would be "too complicated for their levels of fun" to actually imply some sort of simulation of effects.
TLDR, the easy generation wouldnt let it pass and PGI would just ride the money train.
Edited by Draco Harkins, 18 April 2013 - 06:59 PM.
#63
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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:14 AM
Draco Harkins, on 18 April 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:
That is an EXCELENT ideia, but unfortunatly it wont stick, the PGI defense force (AKA WoT/COD/WoW players everything BUT the true Battletech players) wouldnt let it slide, it would be "too complicated for their levels of fun" to actually imply some sort of simulation of effects.
TLDR, the easy generation wouldnt let it pass and PGI would just ride the money train.
Well, my last hope is that they play this game themselves. They do. Getting six ppc into the face from half the enemy team could make them think about changes...
Unless of course they don't drive those builds, too.
#64
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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:06 AM
I was thinking, a while ago, i saw an Atlas that was just about to overheat (friend on voice) walking through the water, now he had the SHS in his legs, and the steam effect was incredibly amusing to watch.
http://d20battletech...t/heattable.bmp
I was thinking, at various points in our Heat Scale, lets say for example sake, those points are [30+/ 50+/ 80~99], we start to see some negative effects. Not quite like the TT rules in that image, where its an effect per point, since our Heat scales to 100, but several stackable stages.
Now, note the top line, the TT version of our instant shutdown, mentions specifically regarding what happens when you massively overreach your Heat capacity.
That interested me a great deal.
Currently, our Heat Sinks (AFAIK) operate normally even while forced into shutdown, and the Mech auto powers up after just 4 seconds regardless of of heat, Generally on 10 DHS, by the time i power on, I'm down to 80%, so I'll use that as my basis.
0 - 29% = No negative effects.
30 - 49% = The Heat Table states a movement and attack negative. In MWO, this could be represented with a flat 10% or 15% reduction in Acceleration, Deceleration, Top Speed, Turn Speed and Twist Speed. With an on screen warning of course, perhaps something like [Warning Engine Impaired Due to Excessive Heat]. This message could appear in the bottom left, above the Armor readout.
50 - 79% = Heat Table wants to reduce weapon damage. Perhaps, instead we could use the Heat being blown off by the Heat Sinks cause a vision obscuring steam effect, similar to the one i saw from that Atlas cooling off in the water, while possible to aim through it, would greatly reduce player accuracy and therefore damage. Perhaps even flicker the target box on/off to represent the Targeting Computer malfunctioning due to the excess heat. Once again accompanied by a message above the previous one, perhaps this one could read [Warning, Excess Heat Impairing Accuracy]
80 - 99% = This one was a little tricky. Ammo explosions won't punish Energy boats who abuse Heat, but will punish normal folk. A while ago, I was discussing with a friend (that Atlas, lol) the possibility of overheating your 'Mech to cause a HeatSink to explode. Ordinarily, HeatSinks are destroyed in the course of battle anyways, often through loss of limb/RT/LT, However, It was never possible to lose the HeatSinks in your Engine. Which is where the HeatSink exploding inside your Engine due to overheating would cause damage to the internals, causing X damage. At this stage in the Heat Scale though, firing a Weapon that generates, lets say, 7+ heat, carries with it a small chance for a HeatSink to overload and explode, Though it would favor HeatSinks outside the Engine unless there were none. Perhaps the Warning message for this could read as [WARNING HeatSink Explosion Risk!]
100 - 109% = Instant shutdown, and i like the TT ruling that HeatSink effectiveness is halved during this time. Pushing your heat into this range should not cause a HeatSink explosion, However, your 'Mech will not cycle back on until your Heat is below 80%, regardless of how long that takes.
110 - 200% = Instant shutdown as per above ruling, However, pushing your heat beyond this percentage will immediately cause a HeatSink to cook off. For every 10% Heat beyond the 110% threshold (120/130 etc) an additional HeatSink will detonate. So a Stalker firing 6 PPCs for 60 Heat while at 99% Heat, will push to the 159% mark, causing the detonations of 4 Heatsinks immediately, in addition to shutting down while that heat is vented.
OVERRIDE = Rather than dealing damage over time to the Torso while over 100%, Have those damage ticks instead be a chance for a HeatSink to blow, at a moderate rate. This would turn Override into a button you press in order to get to cover/allies so you aren't a giant steaming target. [Override Engaged, Heatsinks at Risk]
Conclusion: I'd be very happy to play under those penalties as i try to avoid racking up tons of heat. I like to build as Heat Neutral as i can, however, the people who are building stupidly hot, high alpha 'Mechs will be punished severely, meaning we will see Chain Fire and proper Heat Management skills come into play, so that the Alpha Strike returns to its position of being a last ditch shot to kill your target instead of the only way to shoot. Though this sort of thing would absolutely need to wait until there is a tutorial in place to teach new users of the Heat Scale and its proper use. Perhaps even a narrated run through the Training Grounds as a requirement for a new account prior to being able to queue MatchMaking would suffice for a tutorial.
http://d20battletech...t/heattable.bmp
I was thinking, at various points in our Heat Scale, lets say for example sake, those points are [30+/ 50+/ 80~99], we start to see some negative effects. Not quite like the TT rules in that image, where its an effect per point, since our Heat scales to 100, but several stackable stages.
Now, note the top line, the TT version of our instant shutdown, mentions specifically regarding what happens when you massively overreach your Heat capacity.
That interested me a great deal.
Currently, our Heat Sinks (AFAIK) operate normally even while forced into shutdown, and the Mech auto powers up after just 4 seconds regardless of of heat, Generally on 10 DHS, by the time i power on, I'm down to 80%, so I'll use that as my basis.
0 - 29% = No negative effects.
30 - 49% = The Heat Table states a movement and attack negative. In MWO, this could be represented with a flat 10% or 15% reduction in Acceleration, Deceleration, Top Speed, Turn Speed and Twist Speed. With an on screen warning of course, perhaps something like [Warning Engine Impaired Due to Excessive Heat]. This message could appear in the bottom left, above the Armor readout.
50 - 79% = Heat Table wants to reduce weapon damage. Perhaps, instead we could use the Heat being blown off by the Heat Sinks cause a vision obscuring steam effect, similar to the one i saw from that Atlas cooling off in the water, while possible to aim through it, would greatly reduce player accuracy and therefore damage. Perhaps even flicker the target box on/off to represent the Targeting Computer malfunctioning due to the excess heat. Once again accompanied by a message above the previous one, perhaps this one could read [Warning, Excess Heat Impairing Accuracy]
80 - 99% = This one was a little tricky. Ammo explosions won't punish Energy boats who abuse Heat, but will punish normal folk. A while ago, I was discussing with a friend (that Atlas, lol) the possibility of overheating your 'Mech to cause a HeatSink to explode. Ordinarily, HeatSinks are destroyed in the course of battle anyways, often through loss of limb/RT/LT, However, It was never possible to lose the HeatSinks in your Engine. Which is where the HeatSink exploding inside your Engine due to overheating would cause damage to the internals, causing X damage. At this stage in the Heat Scale though, firing a Weapon that generates, lets say, 7+ heat, carries with it a small chance for a HeatSink to overload and explode, Though it would favor HeatSinks outside the Engine unless there were none. Perhaps the Warning message for this could read as [WARNING HeatSink Explosion Risk!]
100 - 109% = Instant shutdown, and i like the TT ruling that HeatSink effectiveness is halved during this time. Pushing your heat into this range should not cause a HeatSink explosion, However, your 'Mech will not cycle back on until your Heat is below 80%, regardless of how long that takes.
110 - 200% = Instant shutdown as per above ruling, However, pushing your heat beyond this percentage will immediately cause a HeatSink to cook off. For every 10% Heat beyond the 110% threshold (120/130 etc) an additional HeatSink will detonate. So a Stalker firing 6 PPCs for 60 Heat while at 99% Heat, will push to the 159% mark, causing the detonations of 4 Heatsinks immediately, in addition to shutting down while that heat is vented.
OVERRIDE = Rather than dealing damage over time to the Torso while over 100%, Have those damage ticks instead be a chance for a HeatSink to blow, at a moderate rate. This would turn Override into a button you press in order to get to cover/allies so you aren't a giant steaming target. [Override Engaged, Heatsinks at Risk]
Conclusion: I'd be very happy to play under those penalties as i try to avoid racking up tons of heat. I like to build as Heat Neutral as i can, however, the people who are building stupidly hot, high alpha 'Mechs will be punished severely, meaning we will see Chain Fire and proper Heat Management skills come into play, so that the Alpha Strike returns to its position of being a last ditch shot to kill your target instead of the only way to shoot. Though this sort of thing would absolutely need to wait until there is a tutorial in place to teach new users of the Heat Scale and its proper use. Perhaps even a narrated run through the Training Grounds as a requirement for a new account prior to being able to queue MatchMaking would suffice for a tutorial.
#65
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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:27 AM
Lege, on 18 April 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:
Ammo explosions, blurred vision and reduced top speed for getting higher on the heat scale, before shutdown. Right now heat scale doesn't mean much, other than you can't spam energy weapons without taking a break.
THIS !
#66
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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:36 AM
What we need:
http://i288.photobuc...1/heatscale.jpg
Heat effects and penalties is what always distinguished Battletech and Mechwarrior from other mecha-shooters. It's there for a reason: Balancing. What good does it do that a PPC produces far more heat than a medium laser when that heat has virtually no negative effects on you? Neglecting the heat scale (and introducing Coolant Flush, but this is another story) was a big mistake by the Devs. It dumbs down the game and messes with a huge balancing factor that is needed to combat cheese-builds and boating.
This thread (like all the others made about it) has some really good and useful advice on how to implement heat penalties. It can be as simple as slower movement and blurring of the HUD to rather sophisticated penalties like damage to the Pilot itself.
That it would scare away new players is the most absurd argument I heard in this discussion. A player who doesn't get that weapons produce heat and heat is bad for you if there is too much after 2 or 3 matches really shouldn't play a game like MW. The most basic tutorial could cover this and even one of those newly implemented tool-tips during the loading screen is sufficient to tell a player "All your weapons generate heat. Don't generate too much heat or it will have negative effects, maybe even killing you." or something.
When I play a flight simulator, I have to learn that I may black-out by turning too sharply. When I play a shooter, I have to learn that my character can't breath under water. Why is it that only MWO always has to cater to the most dumb and learning-resistant people?
http://i288.photobuc...1/heatscale.jpg
Heat effects and penalties is what always distinguished Battletech and Mechwarrior from other mecha-shooters. It's there for a reason: Balancing. What good does it do that a PPC produces far more heat than a medium laser when that heat has virtually no negative effects on you? Neglecting the heat scale (and introducing Coolant Flush, but this is another story) was a big mistake by the Devs. It dumbs down the game and messes with a huge balancing factor that is needed to combat cheese-builds and boating.
This thread (like all the others made about it) has some really good and useful advice on how to implement heat penalties. It can be as simple as slower movement and blurring of the HUD to rather sophisticated penalties like damage to the Pilot itself.
That it would scare away new players is the most absurd argument I heard in this discussion. A player who doesn't get that weapons produce heat and heat is bad for you if there is too much after 2 or 3 matches really shouldn't play a game like MW. The most basic tutorial could cover this and even one of those newly implemented tool-tips during the loading screen is sufficient to tell a player "All your weapons generate heat. Don't generate too much heat or it will have negative effects, maybe even killing you." or something.
When I play a flight simulator, I have to learn that I may black-out by turning too sharply. When I play a shooter, I have to learn that my character can't breath under water. Why is it that only MWO always has to cater to the most dumb and learning-resistant people?
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