50 replies to this topic

[Warlune]

Coolant, on 17 April 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Why is jump sniping an issue? I don't do it, but don't see it as a problem. What you are seeing is nothing compared to MW4:Mercs...did OP play that?

Yes I played it.

[jay35]

Warlune, on 17 April 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

• Make it so that the crosshairs expand with the usage of jump jets. This makes it difficult to be accurate at long ranges while using jump jets. This will not affect those who use jump jets at closer ranges because the closer range makes targets easier to hit anyway.
  
• Introduce a new upgrade - Advanced Gyro - which increases the size of the Gyro in the CT by 2 slots and weighs a reasonable/balanced amount of tonnage per mech weight class. This upgrade increases the stability of a mech - reducing the chance of knockdown, and increasing accuracy while using jump jets.

Just a rough idea.

Thoughts?

Screwing with the crosshairs removes the only purpose in having jumpjets on anything bigger than a Light mech (where they also serve purposes in scouting and evading pursuers). Might as well just forbid jumpjets on anything bigger than a Light mech. =P

[Ryokens leap]

Just wait until Clans drop and we will have to deal with stars of pop tart Shadow Cats.

[ShadowbaneX]

Lefty Lucy, on 17 April 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

No they didn't. If that were the case there wouldn't be any movement modifiers. The "move, shoot, close combat, heat" paradigm just allows them to have a playable turn-based game.

I know that, but that's the way it works on the raw mechanics. If you want me to phrase it another way: "Also mirror's TT which imposed a -3 penalty to firing while having jumped in that round." There, that pendantic enough for you?

Point is, you jump, there should be a penalty to shooting, and not having pinpoint accuracy.

[verybad]

I think buffing jumpjets so you can jump in different directions (eg sideways) would be a good start for fixing jump sniping for everyone.

[Infernus1986]

There was a thread about this months ago
http://mwomercs.com/...en-jumpjetting/
As usual no one at pgi could be bothered to care and now look where we are.

[Warlune]

jay35, on 17 April 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Screwing with the crosshairs removes the only purpose in having jumpjets on anything bigger than a Light mech (where they also serve purposes in scouting and evading pursuers). Might as well just forbid jumpjets on anything bigger than a Light mech. =P

Main purpose of jump jets - getting over obstacles.
Therefore - extending the crosshairs, while making it difficult to shoot things midair (realistically difficult), doesn't affect the main purpose of jump jets

[Relic1701]

The problem is not the jump snipers, it's the fact there is no drawback to playing one, so everyone does. Adding the expanding x-hair, or constant cockpit shake while airborne will not stop people from being a pop tart, it will just take a lot more skill to do so....therefore we will be back to skill taking centre stage and not FOTM builds.

[Warlune]

Relic1701, on 17 April 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

The problem is not the jump snipers, it's the fact there is no drawback to playing one, so everyone does. Adding the expanding x-hair, or constant cockpit shake while airborne will not stop people from being a pop tart, it will just take a lot more skill to do so....therefore we will be back to skill taking centre stage and not FOTM builds.

Exactly what I'm going for. Adding more drawbacks.

[jay35]

Warlune, on 17 April 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Main purpose of jump jets - getting over obstacles.
Therefore - extending the crosshairs, while making it difficult to shoot things midair (realistically difficult), doesn't affect the main purpose of jump jets

Not in MW games. It's traditionally primarily been used for shooting over obstacles/cover. You might be confusing MWO with tabletop Battletech.

Edited by jay35, 17 April 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Warlune]

jay35, on 17 April 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Not in MW games. It's traditionally primarily been used for shooting over obstacles/cover. You might be confusing MWO with tabletop Battletech.

The undebatable primary purpose of JJs is to get your mech airborne. That is all. Shooting while airborne is just a bonus to the primary purpose.

[ShadowbaneX]

Warlune, on 17 April 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

The undebatable primary purpose of JJs is to get your mech airborne. That is all. Shooting while airborne is just a bonus to the primary purpose.

Well, the the primary purpose behind getting airborne was to move get over difficult terrain more easily. There were modifiers aplenty in TT. Your mech went 1 hex per roughly about 10 kph your mech could do. A mech that could go 64.8 kph was able to move 6 hexes, or more specifically had 6 movement points. Normal terrain cost 1 mp to move one hex. For rough terrain or light forest, you needed 2 mp to move one hex. Heavy forest was 3 mp for one hex.

Jumping MP was different, in which case it ignored those penalties allowing jumping mechs to move through rougher terrain much quicker that those that were earthbound. The detriment is that you got 1 jumping MP per jump jet mounted on your mech. Granted, this mean that a Catapult for instance could jump 4 hexes or 120 meters, which is alot more than the 24 meters that we can jump in MWO.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

In reference to your suggestion about the Gyro module:

PGI has the beginnings of an amazing balance system. Weapons have impulse (force imparted by the weapon impact), and collisions and knock-downs are doable (but are disabled for the time being). If they wanted to spend the time and money on it, they could make a nice, deep balance system that would have sweeping implications for game play.

Give each Gyro a Balance rating (determined by mech variant, as one of the "quirk" options for them to adjust). Make a mech efficiency that would increase this rating. The balance rating would decay as a mech moves, takes hits, runs in to things, and the like. The rating would regenerate over time at a steady pace (lighter mechs should regain balance faster than heavier ones, but should have a smaller starting balance level). Modules (Advanced Neural Helmet, for instance) might speed up balance regeneration or increase available balance level.

An example: Bob is in a Jenner JR7-D. His mech has a gyro that provides 20 balance rating and he regains 5 balance rating per second. If he moves at greater than 75 kph he loses 1 balance regen, greater than 125 kph he loses 2, and if he jumps he loses 4.

Bob gets hit by an LBX autocannon, which imparts 4 impulse to his mech. He also takes seven SRM hits, at 1 impulse each (these numbers are just being thrown out there). That puts him at 11 balance, and he is running flat-out so his regen is reduced to 3 per five seconds. He takes a second LBX hit (another 4) and suffers from several laser hits (damage dealt determines the impulse delivered), for a further 3, putting him at 5. During this time he has regained 2 impulse so he's back up to 7, but then he gets hit by another volley of SRMs, bringing him all the way to 0. He falls over. As he stands again his balance level resets, and he is immune to further impulse loss until he the standing animation ends and he regains control of his mech.

Sam, meanwhile, is in an Atlas. He's got 35 balance in that mech, but only gains 2 impulse per five seconds. He can't jump or move faster than 75 kph, so he never loses balance regeneration.

Sam gets hit by a dual-AC20 volley, suffering 6 impulse. A dragon then rams him from behind, going 85 kph. This collision imparts 20 impulse to the Atlas in addition to the ramming damage, degrading him to 9. The dragon, meanwhile, has knocked itself over by moving super fast and ramming a very heavy target (which degraded all its available balance). Sam turns to deal with the dragon just in time to be hit by another pair of AC20s. He's regained just shy of 2 balance, and loses 6 from the cannon shots, putting him at 5. An LRM volley hits him for a further 6 impulse, knocking him down as well. By the time he stands up again, his balance will have reset to 35.

Obviously the numbers would need to be tweaked and balanced quite a bit, as the above were just taken out of thin air, and looking it over I think the regeneration rates would need to be much higher (making burst damage far better at knocking a mech over, which is as it should be). Still, this change would allow Impulse to be a significant thing by which to balance weapons (the LB-10X might gain a niche use with its super-high impulse value), and it would allow PGI to add yet another thing that players can fiddle with and spend time, c-bills, or MC to improve.

[Lefty Lucy]

The "drawback" to playing a jump sniper is that you spend 4-8 tons on jump jets.

That's not insignificant.

[ShadowbaneX]

The advantage is that for that 4-8 tons you're exposed for only a few seconds, and yet can still deal 30-40 damage with pin point accuracy. Others that have to expose themselves on the ground can take withering counter-fire in the time that they're required to expose themselves and then return to cover.

[von Pilsner]

If we have expanding crosshairs the ultra competitive will just put a dot on their monitor or 2 pieces of thread to denote the aiming point. It will only punish those who don't/won't/can't do that.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Lefty Lucy, on 17 April 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Jump sniping is highly over-blown. It's *good* that mechs with jump jets have a unique role because of those jump jets. Especially on heavy and assault mechs jump jets reflect a *significant* weight investment.

Um, its 8 tonnes for 4 jets. Add a gauss and three ppc`s with heatsinks and ammo and you have still tons of weight to put elsewhere. Now tell me that its significant. Oh no you have to take out an srm 6 and its ammo! Sorry, but do you even mount one if you are a jump sniper? No. So don't tell me its "good". Its a OP build and quite frankly, it does need to be nerfed.

[NinetyProof]

Fix HSR for missiles .. fix missiles ... nuff said.

The real problem is that pop-tarts can pop *safely* from almost anywhere ... don't need much cover at all.

The reality is that most "pop-tarting" can be countered with LRM's, once LRM's are actually a threat again. If the Dev's fix LRM correctly, Pop-Tarts will have to look for cover more of the time, as tag + target decay + working LRM's (with a decent arc) will make it a lot more dangerous.

Heck, you might even see pop-tarts for the sole purpose of tagging.

[Zerberus]

Ryokens leap, on 17 April 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Just wait until Clans drop and we will have to deal with stars of pop tart Shadow Cats.

Some Dire Wolves can jump, too, and you`re worried about Shadow Cats? 0.o

[Nathan Foxbane]

We could argue all these various fixes all day long or we could wait and see if they put convergence back in.